Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. My guests today are two people who have been central to some turnarounds in economic development and housing and the city of Oswego in recent years. And they're here with me to discuss those efforts and the lessons that come out of them. Paul Stewart is the founder of the Oswego Renaissance Association, which he also directs and is also a psychology professor at SUNY Oswego. Billy Barlow is the mayor of Oswego and is currently finishing up his second four year term. He's also Vice President of Public Affairs and System Development at Oswego Health. Mayor Barlow, Professor Stewart, welcome to the program.
Paul Stewart: Thank you.
Billy Barlow: Thank you.
GR: We're glad to have both of you. And, Paul, I'll start with you as the founding director of this organization. I think our listeners are pretty familiar with the standard narrative of Rust Belt City decline, which obviously has hit Syracuse and Utica and Rochester and Oswego, too. But is there anything specific or unique to the case of Oswego, or Oswego’s history that led you to want to form the Oswego Renaissance Association back in 2013?
PS: Well, there's nothing specific about Oswego, per se, that led me to form the association. We have in common, what you described, that sort of slow motion decline over 40 years. Well, what led me to form the association was I didn't think that decline was acceptable nor did many of my colleagues and friends. And so in that respect, we knew something had to change back in the 2012-2013 time frame.
GR: Okay. And was there something about that time that sort of pushed you over to say I'm going to do something actually organizational about this to try to help turn this around?
PS: Well, sure. I mean, almost everybody knows during that time the city had been in a decline phase and had become particularly acute in the late twenty-aughts, you know, and I think in 2008, myself, my partner bought a house in Franklin Square and we were investing our lives into it but all around us things seemed to be degrading and we started to ask, can we continue to do this if the whole neighborhood is going to go down? And so that kind of became a personal question and then led to larger questions about the whole city.
GR: Okay, and I want to get in a little bit later into actually how the association works. But Mayor, I wanted to turn to you just on this background on Oswego. So, is there anything you'd want to add to what Paul said about specific to Oswego or things that our listeners should know and understanding the context for this effort that we're about to discuss?
BB: Well, I think what's important to realize if you're, especially if you're an elected official, but for anybody who cares about their community, is I think it's easy to, when you think about economic development, it's easy to think about cutting a ribbon or new construction, a new building, old downtown building being rehabbed. But at the end of the day, the biggest economic asset a community has, the biggest economic driver is the quality of neighborhoods. And that was something that the Oswego Renaissance Association and Paul pointed out and in as we'll get into in a little while, it's proven to be correct over these last ten to fifteen years. So when you restore old neighborhoods you instill confidence in homeowners and potential buyers. That behavior is contagious and it spreads throughout the community as I'm sure Paul will detail in a little while and how that strategy actually works. So, you know, new buildings, cutting ribbons, it's nice, but at the end of the day, neighborhoods is really what drives the local economy.
GR: Okay, well, let's get some better sense then of how this organization works. So, Paul, I'm going to start calling it the ORA because Oswego Renaissance Association, it sounds great. It's a little bit of a mouthful. So from now on, ORA. How does the ORA work and where does your funding come from?
PS: Well, the ORA gets funded by the Richard S. Shineman Foundation and multiple local businesses and sponsors. And we have been involved in this strategy for the last decade now, it's our 10th year. Where we focus on what are so-called middle neighborhoods. These are neighborhoods that are not your best neighborhoods by any stretch, but they're also not the most blighted neighborhoods. They're in-between. And the rationale is that in those neighborhoods, you still have an opportunity to leverage its potential. And the cost of restoring that neighborhood pales in comparison to what it would cost if we wait till it tipped, right? So we work from these middle markets outward. So, while that traditional experience for people is looking at creeping blight headed their way, loss of owner occupancy, degraded public streets sort of slowly making their way to their neighborhood, we turn that upside down and we start investing with neighbors in those middle neighborhoods so you have a spiraling improvements in the fiscal and social capital. That neighborhood beautification, that neighborhood, it starts to actually spread outward. It's contagious in the opposite direction. And so geographically, we have a unique approach that's not typically the approach most people think of when they do community development. And the other thing I think that's critical is that the majority of resources we leverage comes from the neighbors themselves. You know, we offer, they’re relatively small amounts of money. We'll say, look, we will grant you dollar for dollar, up to $1,000 out of our pocket per house to every neighbor on a block to make exterior improvements as long as it's visible on the street. But the rule is you have to recruit at least five households on your block to form a cluster. And typically because the grants are competitive, you'll have ten or fifteen houses apply. And the really interesting thing is that what we're leveraging, as Mayor Barlow said, is actually long term confidence. When neighbors start to realize that not only are they investing but their neighbors are also investing. They see a real potential for that and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as it snowballs.
GR: That is interesting. And you also get I imagine, neighbor and peer pressure sort of working for you in a good way.
PS: Right.
GR: Because you're looking at each other. Okay, interesting. And so you have this money, it comes from donors and a foundation, and it's like a matching system then, matching dollar system, okay, for these kind of exterior improvements.
PS: Yeah.
GR: So, Mayor Barlow, describe the impact that you think ORA has had on the city and the area. How have you experienced this?
BB: It's hard to really, it's hard to even talk about without underselling it. As Paul mentioned earlier, I actually was born and raised in Oswego. I went to school out at Arizona State and went out there in 2008. I returned in 2013. Nothing good happened in Oswego between 2008 and 2013. And the first positive thing that put Oswego back on the right track was Paul creating the Oswego Renaissance Association. And starting in one small area in the city and slowly growing outward into different areas of the city. It was really the first spark that put Oswego back on the right course and then city government, as often happens, was a few years behind but ultimately began to assist the ORA in their mission. And I'll say, in 2013 you could have driven around the city and you would have been hard pressed to find a neighborhood that anyone would have wanted to live in. Now 2023, you can drive around and it's hard to find an area where you wouldn't want to live. It really has taken off from just one condensed area into the entire neighborhood. I mean we, I often joke with the Code Enforcement Department at City Hall if I see them City Hall I’ll say, do you have any work to do? And you know, sometimes they say, you know, everyone is compliant and you know, we're just finishing up paperwork and it's true. You know, you're hard pressed to find a few properties now that really detract from neighboring properties. So it's smart strategy that's paid off and the city continues to reap benefits from it.
GR: Yeah, I have to say, just as an outsider perspective, and I've been doing this program that you know, the station is based in Oswego there, in a building at SUNY Oswego. And I've been driving back and forth in this time period that we've been talking about. And I remember, you know, in 2009-2010 going up there and thinking, wow, you know, in a bad way, wow. And then just the last time I was up, I think, to do an election night coverage, you know, I had the same impression. So, yeah, it's noticeable. I'm Grant Reeher, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guests are Oswego Mayor Billy Barlow and SUNY Oswego Professor Paul Stewart and we're discussing the Oswego Renaissance Association. So I want to put this question to both of you and maybe Mayor Barlow, start with you on this one. And it is kind of a more general sense of this context and I want to bring it out to the whole area of central New York. And this is something I just mentioned, things I've noticed since 2010, but this is something that has struck me as an outsider coming in 30 plus years ago now and then now living in central New York. And I've spoken on this program about it a few times to people like the writer Sean Kirst, for example, we've talked about this. But it seems to me there there's a kind of a pessimism or a fatalism, maybe even sometimes people call it an inferiority complex about this area that comes through. In addition to the real affection and real loyalty that people feel. It's like a sense that things are never going to quite work out or something else is going to leave or, you know, and is that, you're in Oswego, Mayor Barlow, am I tapping some part of the psyche here when I say that?
BB: I think you're absolutely right. We're kind of pessimistic or negative by nature. But I will say it's somewhat turned around the last five to eight years, you know, and a lot of that is because people are now seeing results. I think, in Oswego particularly but I think it's probably more common than not. The public hears ideas, they hear concepts, they see renderings, the government conducts these studies and analysis and talks about what could be. Rarely does it ever actually happen in front of your eyes in the real world. And, you know, we've had a great run this last decade or so where, and I'm not just talking about city government, but whether it's SUNY Oswego, the ORA, city government, we've said things and then we followed it up with reality. Then I think the public has come to expect that now when city government shows our rendering of something that's actually going to happen versus sitting on a shelf, and it's something people talk about what could have been years from now. So you're right, there's definitely a pessimism or a doubt. But, you know, Oswego has shown what confidence and positivity can do, I think they trust their government now and there's a lot of partners working together to move our area in the right direction. And it's certainly refreshing and it's a change from what we've been accustomed to in the last 30 or so years.
GR: And Paul, sort of a similar question, is that something you have felt and do you feel like ORA, you know, is that part of the satisfaction that you get is participating in something that may be changing that?
PS: Absolutely. I mean, first of all, I understand that the sort of, the pessimism you're talking about, I think to some extent, you know, there's kind of a, I don't know if I would use the word cultural trauma but, you know, regional trauma, when you go through just decades of decline, that is an understandable ethos, if you will. But I think what's been missing is, we are too used to waiting for the state or some outside force to make the change for us. And one of my favorite sort of things to tell people is, no, nothing is coming to save your town, nobody is coming to save your town. If you want to save your town, you have to do it. And what I think is very special about what's happening in Oswego at multiple levels is we have found ways to leverage the spirit and the resources, the time and the energy and the money of the residents here and essentially crowdsource revitalization. And once people see those efforts begin to pay off, it becomes easier and easier to build on that momentum.
GR: Yeah. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with SUNY Oswego professor Paul Stewart, the founding director of the Oswego Renaissance Association, and Oswego Mayor Billy Barlow and we've been discussing the work of that association. So we were talking about turnaround both in Oswego and I think we're feeling it generally throughout the area. And obviously, if we're talking about this most recently, we have to talk about Micron, and there was some pessimism and skepticism when we were tossing around some of the numbers that were associated with Micron. But I think people are beginning to believe now. So, Mayor Barlow, speaking of this potentially huge development for Syracuse, I was curious from your perspective, further north up in Oswego, how do you think it's going to affect things up in Oswego? Will it have a ripple effect that far out? What's your sense of this?
BB: Well, first, I often tell my constituents who are maybe pessimistic or doubtful of what may or may not happen with Micron, if even a quarter of what they're talking about happens that is still larger than anything we've seen in this area recently. So, there's a lot of reason to be optimistic and looking forward to what Micron brings to the community. As far as what Oswego stands to gain, I think obviously we're not in a position being, you know, probably a half hour or so away from the plant. We're not in a position to benefit as much as communities that are closer. But we are in a great position to see some benefits. And luckily, we've had this great round of economic development and victories here in the last eight years or so. If Micron employees and their families are looking for an affordable waterfront community with great neighborhoods, great community assessed assets, nice parks, a quaint downtown and a tourism type feel to the community, particularly in the summertime, Oswego is the place to be. And for a lot of these folks who may move from other areas into Central New York for Micron, a 30 minute commute to work, if they're from a metropolitan area, it's like cutting their commute by 50%. So we're in a great position and luckily we've had a successful eight years or ten years or more to be the community we are now. So I think we will see some Micron employees up to live in Oswego and a lot of that is credit to the Oswego Renaissance Association because when people look where to live and raise their family, they look at education, they look at access to health care, and they look at the quality of neighborhoods and we’re excelling in most of those areas. So I think we're in a good position.
GR: And so Paul, there's something that you've mentioned a couple of times now. You mentioned the phrase social capital, you mentioned the idea that, you know, no one's coming to save the town, you have to be the one to save the town.
PS: That's right.
GR: And there's a puzzle that I've always had as a political scientist about effective leadership that this particular case speaks directly to. And that's the relative roles and the relative importance and even sort of the order in which they occur of grassroots activity and kind of, leadership from, I don't know if I like the phrase bottom up, but, you know, the base level out maybe is a better way to say it, as the driver. And then individual leadership, like the kind of leadership that you, Paul Stewart, the impact that you have made or the impact that Mayor Barlow has made and the confidence that the city has and the confidence that people have in the government. I don't know if you have thought about this in your experience with the ORA, but do you have any insights on sort of what comes first or how they're related that could give me some insight on that?
PS: I've thought about that, I think quite a bit. I mean, my friend Chuck Marohn from Strong Towns has a phrase I really like. When we talk about the difference between top down strategies and bottom up strategies, the ORA is decidedly bottom up. And let me clarify, a lot of times strategies from the top, like a program that's been developed for your community, or some new, even sometimes new money that comes in some it's very orderly and structured and plan, but it's also dumb oftentimes. It's called orderly, but dumb, in that it doesn't necessarily take into account local conditions. And a lot of times what is being done for a community is occurring hundreds of miles away in terms of the decision phase. In contrast, when you're working at the grassroots level, like in the DNA of a community, you're on the ground there. We call it chaotic but smart. The people that live in the community kind of know what their neighborhoods require because they're living in it every day. And so we can make much more, I think, directed decisions about what individual blocks need because we're in them and living in them. And when you empower blocks to lead and neighborhoods to lead, you get, they will pursue their interests in the way that that makes the most sense for them, that's very powerful. And in terms of social leadership, social capital leadership, you know, you hit on another important point, which is that for a community to work well, to succeed, it's sort of like a football team. You're not going to execute your plays if you don't know each other, you don't have a camaraderie there and you don't trust each other, right? So one of the things that we do is in these small granting programs that we’re involved in, it requires that neighbors work as groups. And in the process, they get to understand each other. They know what their shared values are and most of them realize we want our neighborhood to be a better place five years from now where we want to raise our kids, et cetera, et cetera. And then letting them lead. It's very much, I think, on point for where those neighborhoods need to go.
GR: If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and my guests are Oswego Mayor Billy Barlow and SUNY Oswego Professor Paul Stewart. So, Paul, I want to get the mayor in on this one and before I do, I want to push you just a little bit on what you said. And so a thought experiment here. Let's say Paul Stewart gets a job in Chicago instead of Oswego, what happens? I mean, so, it does need, I mean, you sketched out and you were very generous and spreading out the credit, but doesn't it need a spark and weren't you that spark? I mean, this is the thing, the puzzle that I struggle with.
PS: Is that for me or the mayor here? (laughter)
GR: That’s for you, I’m putting Paul Stewart on the spot here. (laughter)
PS: Well, no, it's critical. You never want success of any movement to depend on a single individual, because if they get hit by a bus tomorrow, you know, that's a problem. So what you want to be able to do is build the leadership of the residents you have so that what you eventually do is, you make it normative that blocks, of course, people paint their houses every seven to ten years. Of course, everyone mows their lawn. Of course, people want to live here and maintain their homes because it's now become healthy and normal to do that. So in many ways, we are changing a culture that outlives any one individual, right? The second thing I want to emphasize, and I know that the mayor would agree with this, is people think that the ORA is about like me and this organization, it's not. It's an application of a philosophy that says, if you as a community want to thrive if you want to grow, you have to invest in yourself and build on your assets rather than being focused solely on what's broken and what's wrong. You have to identify what is it that we're good at, how can we get better at those things? That's a philosophy that's not an individual. And one of the things that I think among many that I have in common with the mayor here is, is he has the same approach. He wasn't coming to office to say, oh, well, here's all the problems I'm going to fix. He pursued a vision that built on our strengths. So I just want to emphasize that, part of this is changing a culture to be focused on building on what's working rather than trying to fix what's not.
GR: And Mayor, we've got about 3 minutes or so left, but I know you want to get in on this, so go ahead. What are your thoughts on this puzzle of leadership and Paul and you and Oswego here?
BB: Well, first I I want to make something extremely clear, is that I view the ORA as the lead in neighborhood restoration and our mentality and strategy at city hall is not to try to be the leader, let ORA lead and our job is to assist as much as possible. And that assistance goes beyond anything financial or just Paul and I getting along personally, it actually means focus at the ORA, what they call target zones. And the city government not only assists in terms of code enforcement, you know, we strategically deploy code enforcement to work in those target zones and certainly around the perimeter of those targeted zones to assist and supplement their investment with strong code enforcement. But also, look, when we decide which roads to pave, where to replace sidewalks, where to make sure the streetlights are in working fashion. We try to work and concentrate investment, city investment in the ORA target zones. And we do that because it's easy. If you take a picture in let's just say in February, ORA comes in, investment, they get homeowners all on the same page to beautify their homes in the neighborhood and then take a pitch for October. And the neighborhood went from a C-plus to an A-minus. That's easy to show. And that progress is contagious versus letting ORA do their thing and city government does their thing. The second component to that is, Paul and I can have the same opinion and take the same action on any given topic without even talking to each other. And that's what a true partnership looks like. You know, I can, we go to make a decision in the city. I can think in the back of my head, would Paul Stewart and the ORA agree with this and is this in line with their strategy? And Paul can be very aggressive because he's so passionate. And I often tell department heads, when Paul Stewart asks for something, assume I'm asking for it, right?
GR: Wow.
BB: Because you know it's coming from the right place, it's not to benefit Paul personally. Why would Paul care about something at Breitbeck Park? He's asking for a reason because there's a strategy and a method behind the madness. And, you know, my job is to empower him, embrace the ORA as much as possible, and let them lead. And we assist as much as we can because the strategy is right.
GR: And Paul we only have a second or two, so it’s got to be a couple of sentences.
PS: So, I want to follow up with that. What we talk to our neighbors about is, if you lead and you show that you’re going to invest, it encourages the city to double down on your investments, that’s part of what Billy just said.
GR: Well, we’ll have to leave it there. It sounds like in Oswego, smart chaos is working and it’s nice to have a good story to tell. That was Billy Barlow and Paul Stewart. Mayor Barlow, Professor Stewart, thanks for taking the time to talk with me.
PS: Thank you.
BB: Thank you.
GR: You’ve been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.
