Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. My guest today is Heather Morris. She's an actor, dancer, producer and writer who is probably best known for her role as Brittany Pierce on the hit TV show, “Glee”. She's here with me today to talk about her work as executive producer and writer for a podcast series titled, “The Bystanders”, a dark comedy exploring the bystander effect - the notion that individuals are less likely to try to help a victim when they are in the presence of other strangers. The podcast is in its second season. Ms. Morris, welcome to the program.
HM: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
GR: Well, we are glad to have you. So let me just start with a really basic question. The bystander effect, how did you get the interest in the idea to work on a podcast about this particular topic?
HM: So the bystander effect obviously is something that has been studied through psychology since the sixties after the Kitty Genovese story. And if you don't know, maybe go do some research and it's very tragic, but I know there's a couple of documentaries that have since come out, you know, regarding how people felt like it was unsafe to do something. And so essentially the bystander effect, you know, the more people that are involved in an emergency, the less likely they are to help because everybody thinks somebody else is going to do it. And so, I was getting my lashes done by my great friend Jaclyn Hales, who is also one of the creators of the podcast. And so she was not even pitching me this concept, but she said her and Ash Lendzion, who are both the creators, were in the middle of writing this as a feature film. And the second she started talking about that idea that a woman gets murdered in her courtyard and nobody does anything, I was like, instantly hooked. And I was like, Jaclyn, we have to make this. And it's hard, this was maybe four years ago, but even since then, like, you know the streaming content is so saturated. And even for somebody like me who's been on a Fox TV show and who you'd think would be like, oh, of course you can get a meeting and pitch this, like it's still so difficult. So I thought, what if we turned this into a scripted podcast and this is something that we can basically do on our own? Like, we have the details at our fingertips and we can find a distributor, and we did.
GR: Okay. And so tell me how this podcast is structured. Is it like a drama with characters? Is it set up a different way? Give us an idea of what it's like to listen to.
HM: So it's a dark comedy ensemble podcast. We like to describe it as like a radio drama, essentially. It's like this 1940’s feel because there is this wonderful musical score made by Tory Cummins. And it just guides you and glides you through this whole story. It's an ensemble, so there are, in each season, because there's two seasons now, there's roughly like seven to eight characters per season. And they're known as the bystanders. And yeah, they are, the first season, they were shorter episodes, but there was more of them. There were like, 15 minutes to 18 minutes and there was eight episodes. Season two, we kind of listened to the fans because all the comments on the reviews were like, we want this to be longer. So we listened, we made them a little bit longer and we released all of them at the same time because people want to binge it. You know, they want to hear it fast. So we've tried to be smart and listen to the fans.
GR: So, you read my mind at the beginning when you mentioned Kitty Genovese, because one of the questions I was going to ask you was about that case. And when people of my generation who are much older than your generation think of the bystander effect, that is often where their minds go, that famous case. And it was, as you said, the murder of Kitty Genovese in New York City in 1964. She was raped and stabbed to death outside her apartment building. And supposedly, as reported by the New York Times at that time, a lot of people witnessed the murder, I think in excess of 30 and didn't try to help or call the police. But you mentioned these documentaries that were made about it later and one of the things that they uncovered later is that that was actually contradicted that many of them did try to call the police and some of them you know did try to do things, they didn't go out there and stop it obviously, but that that particular murder led to this notion of the bystander effect. So obviously you looked at that case and I'm just wondering what you make of that particular case in all of this.
HM: I don't know, I think because it was so vast and so outlandish, it was also in one of the like the fastest, the quicker paced cities. You know, like there was so many eyes on this and it seemed, I think to many people, like the first of its kind in this modern day world. I mean, obviously, you know, we're not a new culture, but essentially America is. It felt like a very American culture thing for all of us. Like, we just weren't exposed to things like this, especially in, like this urban jungle, right? And so I think it was new and different and weird. And so obviously the media does what they do and they shame people, and so I think a lot of those people got shamed immediately because everybody's going, well, why did nobody do anything? And that's what we like to explore in the podcast is like, why didn't people get involved? There's so many reasons why somebody doesn't get involved. And some of the reasons in the documentary was that she was a gay woman in the sixties and it was highly shunned upon. And I think some of that's valid. I don't quite see it one hundred percent true because I think people did try to get involved, but it's the same thing that we're seeing now with people videoing on their phone, right? Like people are in the middle of a subway and they see somebody getting raped and they start videotaping and I think you have to retrain your brain sometimes. Because I'm watching these things back and I'm going, I can't believe nobody did anything! Like, what?! But then if you actually put yourself in that person's shoes, like, what would you do? How could you get involved if somebody has a gun or a knife in their hand? So I don't know, there's a lot of speculation with that, that particular story, the Kitty Genovese story. But it's really hard because immediately those people got shamed. And I just don't think that that's true. I think the media likes to take things and run really quickly.
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Heather Morris, the actor and writer who has recently been working on the podcast titled, “The Bystanders”. So, you already got into this a little bit when you were talking about the Genovese case but, as you've gotten deeply into this and looked into the bystander effect and thought about it, what do you think are the most important things you've learned about this problem?
HM: Well, so as we've discovered writing this, you know, like with these bystanders and creating these characters and like delving into reasons why they wouldn't, we felt a deep, almost like remorseful that we've shunned these characters into feeling bad and other people do. And so when we talk about stuff like that, we are constantly trying to say, well, how can I get involved? And instead of saying you're going to do something, like really putting yourself out there and in the world and like making sure you are trying to do the best possible you can in situations like that. And even as a writer, just exploring also like in the future seasons, what it's going to be like, when somebody does get involved. You know, like those people that do get involved and then they get in trouble or they get sued or whatever happens from there. So there's just so many reasons, and not to like point the finger.
GR: Yeah, I want to get into actually two things that you just brought up, but I want to do it a little bit later I have some other questions I wanted to ask first. One of them is, you described this podcast as a dark comedy. I can see that it's dark, given the time. It's harder for me to see the comedy. So tell me in what ways you've been able to find humor in exploring this bystander effect?
HM: Right, yeah, it's like, oh my God, somebody is dying in every season?! No, it's the wittiness. It's the zaniness of these storylines and these characters. And there are a lot of character actors, especially in the first season, there's some pretty fun characters who bring humanity to it and just bring that, you know, like, “Drop Dead Gorgeous”, like how some of those characters are just a little over the top and like, but also really believable because we know people like that from our day to day lives. Like, you just can't believe people like that exist in the world. Well, that's, “The Bystanders”, as you just have these characters that the writers in season one, and then I got to be a part of the writing season in season two, we just had to hash out exactly who these characters are and their quirks, if they have a stutter, you know, why they are who they are. And then once we hired these actors, so Kathleen Turner and Luke Cook and Margaret Cho, Beth Dover, Joe Lo Truglio, all these actors in season two, these are all just hysterical actors on their own. We have Jane Lynch as well. So like, these people know what the **** they’re doing and they can jump into it…
GR: …I think we may I think we may have to edit out that work for NPR, by the way. But that's okay, keep going. (laughter)
HM: (laughter) It's for dramatic effect.
GR: Right, right.
HM: So just I mean, these actors brought our characters to life. And I think that's what makes it, you know, like that's what makes it the comedy. The subject matter is dark, but the zaniness of the characters and the situations, especially season two, our setting and the storyline is so much zanier than season one, we basically have a crazed captor who is trying to teach these bystanders a lesson in the weirdest way in a toy house. So, there's like some, “Saw” mixed in there. I don't think it's hard to use your imagination. it really is just like a wild, fun experience.
GR: So when you were talking about the Genovese case, one of the things you said was, you know, it's happened in a fast paced city. And one of the things in my prep for talking to you that I found, was some social psychologists have argued that the culture of a particular area or a particular group has a big effect on whether others will intervene to help a stranger. What do you think about that? I mean, is it, do you think maybe this kind of thing is less likely to happen in a small town where people know each other? What's your sense of that?
HM: Well, I feel like you just brought up a really great premise for season three, and I'm going to steal it from you.
GR: Feel free.
HM: Because I don't even think we discussed that. Like, the idea that a certain demographic or a certain group of people could decide the fate of somebody else. You know, like with so many serial killers, I feel like it happens in smaller towns rather than bigger towns, right? So for me, I never even thought about it that way, and I really like your point that.
GR: Well, great.
HM: That was very great, I loved it. So thank you for making a point that I don't even think about.
GR: Well bring me on as a contributing writer.
HM: (laughter)
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm talking with Heather Morris, the actor, dancer, writer and producer best known for her role as Brittany on the TV show, “Glee”. And we've been discussing her new her work as executive producer and writer for the podcast titled, “The Bystanders”. Heather, you mentioned before in the first half when we were talking about people who do get involved often paying a price for that in one way or another, getting in trouble. And there was one very prominent recent example of that. It happened last May in New York City, it was the killing of Jordan Neely. He was a homeless man who was harassing and threatening other riders on the subway. And then this Marine veteran, Daniel Penny intervened and he put him in a chokehold, which ultimately resulted in his death. That incident split the city and also the nation, it became this national story. And people's reaction to it, some arguing and protesting that Penny should have been immediately arrested and charged, others supporting Penny for trying to help. Ultimately, he was charged with manslaughter and as of the time we're talking, he's pled not guilty. I don't know if you followed that or not or if you have any particular thoughts on that issue.
HM: No, this is the first time I’m hearing this, so you’re hearing genuine reactions.
GR: Yeah, yeah, it seems like you're pretty shocked about it. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, it just kind of underlines your point about, you know, people who do get involved. And his argument was, I was just trying to stop the guy, I wasn't intending to kill him. But, well, we can move on from that one. Let me sort of, it gets to this bigger question I really want to ask you to reflect on, which is, and you already kind of talked about it, but this bystander effect and the discussion of it, it raises these really deep questions about what our moral obligations are to each other as human beings. And this Neely / Penny incident, you know, puts that question in terms of how far those obligations extend, what are the boundary lines for, how much we should or shouldn't get involved. And I know that's a huge question, but, you know, what do you make of this at this point? I mean, what do strangers owe to each other as fellow human beings?
HM: Wow, such a moment, such a deep, it’s a deep rooted question. You know, like, I watch so much, “Law & Order: SVU”, and I try to pretend like I'm in those courtrooms because I'm like, there's just so many sides to a story. And I think if people feel entitled to a lot of opinion, which is great, it's great to have opinion. But I think what we lack is a humanity, and I've heard people say this, you know, often, especially with social media, how it heightens it, is I think people are lacking the ability to hear and reason with the other side. Like in a really complimentary way, like genuinely listening, understanding, taking either mental notes or if you need like a notepad to write it down and reflect. And also like there is something to taking a moment, digesting, not reacting right away. Some may say in my family, like my children, they're like, why aren’t you saying anything, why aren’t you talking? And I'm like, I just have to digest what's happening. And yes, it's always good to like act, react, help in any way. But I also think there's something to, you know, like digesting information, like what we just heard about this Marine. And he was trying to say, there's two sides, absolutely. He was trying to save some people because this homeless man was putting them in an unsafe scenario and his intention was not to kill. He did not go on that train that day and say, I'm going to kill somebody. Like, it's just wild. So I think if I make a point here, it's just that people need to hear both sides and weigh them for what they are. The reality of it, right? Like, the reality of the dire situation of what you're looking at from all different sides, political, humanitarian, you know?
GR: Well, you're reading my mind about where I was going to go with this because you just went there. But the question I wanted to ask you as a follow up, as is I wonder how the recent trend in social movements and conversations about different kinds of identity affect the views related to this? Because on the one hand, we could say, the recent trend in emphasizing different identities might help raise awareness of need and trauma and unfair exclusions. But on the other hand, they may also underline our differences from each other and make us feel like we are more separate from each other. I mean, you mentioned the political divisions just a second ago, for instance. And I have to admit, as I wrestle through this, I'm torn on this question sometimes about, am I being told that I am different from someone else and separate, or am I being asked to empathize with somebody else for their situation? I don't know if you have any thoughts about thinking that through. It almost seemed like that's where you were going, that we need to take a moment and empathize.
HM: Absolutely. So, I can try to touch on it slightly. I teach on a dance convention and we preach inclusion and diversity and, you know, equity. And I start all my classes out with, my name is Heather Morris, my pronouns are she / her, if I misspeak on your pronouns, please let me know, I am not the fastest learner, but I would love to know your pronouns. I'm not great at names, et cetera, et cetera. I think discussing gender identity and pronouns is not to point out our differences, but only to just understand each other right away. You know, like this is who I am and this is who I identify with. And a lot of times my kids come home from school and they share their deepest thoughts with me, you know, like the things that go on in their mind that they're never going to say out loud. But they'll point out somebody that they see that, you know, may have just transitioned or was a man and is now a female and they'll say to me on the side, like, I can't tell, is that a man or a woman? And I, you know, as calmly and as kindly as I can, I just say, does it really matter? If he's not going to disclose and if she's not going to disclose her pronouns right away, it doesn't matter. But if this is important to that person and they disclose their pronouns, because I misspoke on your pronouns, then it's obviously important to them. Case closed, move on. Like accept it for what it is and just doesn't need to be a thing. And that's I think that's the point that we're trying to make is like anybody with gender identity, like they're disclosing to you, I think they just want to tell you and they just want to move on. And it's not to say I'm different, it's just that, like, this is how I identify and that's it, you know?
GR: I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media and my guest is Heather Morris. So in this last section, I want to lighten things up a little bit, I asked you a couple of heavy questions there. And if you don't mind, I'd like to go back to your time with, “Glee”, if I could and ask a question about that. I have two very good friends who teach at Skidmore College and they are huge fans of musicals. And for whom to quote one of them, “Glee” was, “appointment viewing”. They're insanely envious of me right now, by the way.
HM: (laughter)
GR: So, tell me a couple of things about doing the show and making the show that these two devotees wouldn't know and would find interesting.
HM: Oh, man. These are questions sometimes I wish I have in advance, because then I can like think about, you know, like what don't you know about everybody there? Jeez, man, I feel like everybody knows everything. I don't know what else I can share with you that, like, people wouldn't know. I mean, we had a blast, it was an incredible experience. It was not only (an) amazing show and a great experience, but it was one of the hardest things to do in the entire world. And it taught every single one of us on that set a whole bunch about a lot of things. You know, because it's not like a regular show, it's a cool show. So there's like, singing and dancing and like, theater is live, right? You're on stage and you're performing and your beats hit right away. But like, what happens when you have to roll the camera 15 times on a dance take, right? Like, we're all drained and tired. And so I want to highlight like, it's like life. Like, there's always amazing things, but sometimes it's really tough and not in a negative way, it's just, it was hard. It was an hour-long show, there was 22 episodes a season, singing, dance rehearsals. We had a blast. We were young, we were partying together. We became a family in the best way. I hope that helps them feel more included.
GR: (laughter)
HM: I don't have any dirty, deep, dark secrets, man. Like, yeah.
GR: All right.
HM: A lot of naps, okay, a lot of naps. There were a lot of naps in the hallway.
GR: And this goes back to thinking about the transition for something like, “Glee” to a podcast like, “The Bystanders”. But if I understand your career correctly, it's visual. You know, you're a dancer, you're an actor, now you're doing this thing where people are only hearing it, right? So, how does that change how you think about what you're doing there, the creative process? Because you have to as you said, it's like a 1940’s radio program. So there must be some kind of piece of this, it's easy for me because it's just, this has always been a radio program. I've never had to think of it as anything else. So what kind of transitions did you have to make?
HM: So like as a writer, I was not involved the writing process, but I was involved like heavily on just editing the scripts we would get, the final scripts. And just going through like audio cues and stuff like that. Because it's not like TV. TV is do, don't show, right? It's all in your performance and the simplicity of it, because you're watching it. And so everything is visual, you don't even hear how somebody feels, but you can see it. And so turning that into like an audio drama, it completely changes all of your audio cues. And then the fun of it is like, adding in quirks for characters so we can differentiate between one character and another. One character wears bangles on her wrist so we know when Doctor Jane is talking, and another character squeaks her shoes. Like, there's just so many things that you can give the audience along with the musical score, because the musical score obviously guides us emotionally. And also did help with like the showing of the scene. Like sometimes you hear a dun dun dun, which was always fun to do. But my point, a lot of times when like when we were getting into the directing and stuff was, in a lot of podcasts and I won't name any, it feels like you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk, and I did not want that. Even though we were recording separately, and a lot of people, the only people we had this season recording together were Beth Dover and Joe Lo Truglio because they are a couple, they are married in real life, so they got to record together and we got to use that, which was super fun. But I wanted it to feel like everybody was in that same room. That was our biggest challenge , and feeling like it was a full scene as if it was really happening. So that was quite a challenge and really fun to do audio-wise.
GR: Well, we've only got about half a minute left. I want to squeeze one last quick question in, and that's just, what other things are you working on at present other than the podcast? I mean, what are we going to see from Heather Morris in the future, or hear?
HM: A couple of secret projects which are very exciting for me. I'm on a journey to becoming a singer once again. I have just tried to push myself within these last two years like I never have, and that is singing. I dropped singing when I was young, my dad passed away and it was one of those things that, like, I love so much, but the loss of my dad just took me and I lost singing. And so now I'm like, find that joy again, Heather, go out and get it. So I'm like doing vocal lessons and for no other reason than just to be home, I guess. Like, very cheesy, but there's that. And then there's the strike, which is trash, and it sucks and I want the AMPTP to get their crap together. But hustling, man. I'm teaching some wine and heels classes to some adults so that we can be sexy and also drink and feel empowered. I know the partners at home love it when they come home after they've taken my class. So yeah, just hustling, you know?
GR: That's great. We'll leave it there. And that was Heather Morris. And again, the podcast that she's producing and writing for is called, “The Bystanders”. Heather, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me, it's been interesting and it's also been great fun. So thank you.
HM: Thank you so much.
GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.
