Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. My guest today is June Hersh. She's a writer and a speaker who has in the past written about the Holocaust and food history. And she has a new book out now on the food of Upstate New York. It's titled, “The Flavor of Upstate New York: Iconic Dishes, Delicious History and Reinvented Recipes”. June, welcome to the program and congratulations on this new book.
June Hersh: Thank you so much, Grant. And thank you for having me.
GR: Well, it's a pleasure having you. So I want to start with a very basic question, because I'm sure, just as I said that, our listeners are starting to think about specific foods. And so what would you say, if you were just giving a list, what would you say are the four or five greatest hits of the dishes and flavors of upstate New York, just rattling them off?
JH: Well, you know what, what I love about the food of upstate New York is it's very representative of the different immigrants and the groups that inhabit that region. I love that because food history is really what drives me. I love to know the why to what we're eating. And I think that the food of upstate New York is really very illustrative of that aspect of food. So I love a dish like chicken riggies because it represents the best of Italian culture and the resourcefulness of how they brought, you know, their flavors to New York and made it pretty simple and was good for a budget. I think salt potatoes is genius. It's basically creating a mashed potato in a fabulous salty covering. And again, it came out of the ingenuity of Irish immigrants who needed to stretch a dollar and we're digging up salt anyway and kind of make it work. The college influences in upstate New York are everywhere. And I don't think it's seen any more clearly than in the garbage plate, the best antidote to a frat party hangover. And so I think that is definitely one of those dishes that define the region. And then I would say one of my favorites represents the German influences, and that would be beef on weck. I love a French dip, but when you add that pungent, fruity caraway seed to the roll, you've added such extra deliciousness to it. So those are among my four favorite upstate hits that I think represent the culture of upstate New York.
GR: That's great. I want to come back to at least one of those later. So, but let me ask you this, maybe a tougher question. If you were forced to pick the most emblematic, the most iconic dish of upstate, what would it be and why?
JH: I would probably say if I was to pick one, it would probably be the garbage plate.
GR: Wow.
JH: And that would be because it represents, even though it is by no means the most popular and for some, it's completely off putting, but because it has so many different elements in it, I think it really represents the confluence of, you know, ingredients that represent the region. So you have hot dogs in it and you have beans and you have macaroni salad and you have French fries and you have all of these different elements coming together. Isn't that really what Upstate New York is all about? It's really bringing together all these very different cultures and backgrounds and heritage and somehow making something interesting, inventive, a tad quirky, you know I call it a culinary curiosity. But that, to me is what I discovered about upstate New York. It's not what you always expect. And so I think the garbage plate is it is very unexpected dish of food.
GR: And so you mentioned that that one has perhaps a more limited appeal beyond the area, let's flip it around. What is the upstate dish that you think has been taken up and become the most popular elsewhere, across the country, maybe even around the world? Is there an upstate dish that, you know, you can find almost anywhere?
JH: Sure. Well, without question, and you know, a lot of food history is really food law. And you don't know where that boundary is between fact and slight exaggeration. So, of course, we have the hamburger, which many take claim that it took place at the county fair and that's where they ran out of a certain meat and they made ground beef and they made a hamburger and certainly that is a ubiquitous food. But I would have to ere on the side of two dishes because I'm torn. One, my sweet tooth would tell me the sundae, the ice cream sundae, which really did very likely originate in upstate New York when a pastor went to a local drugstore and they wanted to make something special for him on Sunday after church and they added some cherries and some whipped cream and a little bit of syrup, and they created the ice cream sundae. They changed the spelling because they did not want to offend church goers on Sunday to come up with such a frivolous name of a dessert and somehow watered down the message of the importance of that day of rest. The other one is I love the foods that have come out of Saratoga and the club sandwich, which again, is reported to have come from that region and definitely the potato chip. Who doesn't like a good crispy potato chip? So I think the club sandwich with a side order of potato chips is pretty much a mainstay. Anywhere you go, you can order a club sandwich with a side order of chips. And that's going to represent food of upstate New York.
GR: So you're really blowing my mind here because you've selected all these things that are extremely well known. When I was thinking of that question myself, I was not thinking big enough because I thought you were going to tell me Buffalo wings, because you can find those anywhere. But these are much more you know, standard dishes. So, it's fascinating.
JH: Yes. And I what I like about them is people don't realize their provenance, they don't realize where these foods originally came from. That's what I love discovering and finding out. Oh, what was the origin of that dish? Really? The potato chip in Saratoga really was an invention of an African-American chef who worked at a hotel there at a hotel restaurant. And supposedly Vanderbilt did not like the potatoes he was served with and out of frustration, they very thinly shaved the potatoes and just threw it in a vat of hot oil and served these to him and they became a hit. And so, you know, you look at something like that and you say, look how that just came about, that's just, it's fascinating. And it's again, like you said, it's something that everyone eats everywhere. It was immediately embraced and it definitely came out of Saratoga.
GR: And then you also have, you know, pleasing this uber-wealthy person and then creating something that is totally, you know, plebian in its attraction.
JH: Correct, yeah.
GR: I like that piece too. Well, you may have already sort of hinted at this, but, and I don't know whether this question really has an answer, but is it possible to say what drives the nature of upstate cuisine? It sounds like ethnicity is a big piece of it. I was just wondering, is there anything about the place itself? You know, like the, I don't know, the snow the cold or anything that you think would have an influence on the nature of the food that's been produced here?
JH: Sure, without question. Because the food originated, if you go back to the first New Yorkers, you had the three sisters. You had the beans that were so very important because they thrived on the land where the Native Americans, where the Iroquois tribe, you know, planted its roots. And so those foods were indigenous to the indigenous people. And that's really, I think a hallmark of the food of upstate. A lot of places take New York City, I wrote a book called, “Iconic New York Jewish Food”, it's got fabulous food in it. It has all of the wonderful things that we love about New York food but they are not necessarily in New York because of anything New York City contributes to them other than the people. So a knish, it's not grown in New York.
GR: (laughter)
JH: Smoked salmon, it doesn't swim necessarily in our waters. And so it was derived by the people, whereas the food of upstate New York was derived from the resourcefulness of the people using the land, using what they had to work with. So you start with the Iroquois and they had the three sisters and the beautiful beans and then you go to the Finger Lakes and we have these fabulous wines. You go to Albany that had an abundance of sturgeon and you look at the land and you look at the trout fishing that takes place, and you look at grape pie, which came from the Concord grapes, and you say, what drove those dishes? Well, it was the resourcefulness of the people who were there who had the wherewithal to take what the land was giving them and turn them into delectable, iconic foods. Very different than most other regions. Chicago Pizza has nothing really to do with the ingredients that come from Chicago, but the foods of upstate New York are driven by the ingredients that are grown in that region.
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with June Hersh, and we're discussing her new book titled, “The Flavor of Upstate New York: Iconic Dishes, Delicious History and Reinvented Recipes”. So the question I just asked about what drives the upstate cuisine is related in a way to a different topic of your other writing and speaking about food that I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about. And as I mentioned at the outset of the program, you've written and you've spoken very widely about the Holocaust and food history. And one thing struck me right away is that that combination seems very paradoxical in some ways, in that food is often considered a lighter and a happier topic. I mean, you're obviously very happy talking to me about food right here in this program. But the Holocaust is about as serious and as heavy as it gets. So I just wonder if you could reflect on how those two fit together. Do they, you know, is it an awkward fit? How do you how do you manage that?
JH: No, it's actually a seamless fit. And it fit in so many different ways in the context of the food with connection to the Holocaust, but more specifically with Holocaust survivors, really helped shape their ability to survive because food became a link, whether they were partisans fighting in the woods, whether they were unfortunately interned in a concentration or in a death camp, or whether they were refugees in another region. The food was their link to their best and happiest times. I heard from every Holocaust survivor I spoke to, most specifically the men even more than the women, that food was the connection to the mother that they lost in the Holocaust. And so their ability to preserve that food memory and to continue that thread that wove through their childhoods and carried them through this awfully traumatic time, but brought them forward into survival, becomes so very strong. It's not a fragile, tenuous thread, It is an incredibly strong thread. And so food in the Holocaust and Holocaust survivors is a link and it takes them from tragedy to triumph. And so talking about food is just, it's a way to bring them to happy times, it's a way to get them through the difficult ones and it's a way to ensure that their legacy and their family's history and culture and that the Jewish people, what we've been imbued with for centuries continues. And so food is a perfect vehicle for that.
GR: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. So you must, you obviously have collected some very powerful stories on this topic. And I was just wondering, when it comes to the food connection, that you have one favorite one that you could tell us briefly, I mean, I'm sure you could take the rest of the program talking about it, but is there one you can pick?
JH: You know, I wrote the book originally in 2011. At the time it was called, “Recipes Remembered: A Celebration of Survival”. It's been reinvented and rebranded as, “Food, Hope and Resilience”. And what remains is that every recipe in that book represents somebody’s the best version of a dish and not the dishes that you expect, not the typical Ashkenazi dishes, the matzo ball soup, although they're in there, and brisket and kugel and all of those, of course they're in there. But what's represented, which is what I love, is the cooking traditions of the diaspora and how a Dominican, a Jew who found themselves in the Dominican Republic made arroz con pollo, and that was her iconic Jewish dish. Or one who found herself in Milan because she wanted to gain passage to Palestine, Israel, as it was called at the time, that she gave me a recipe for semolina gnocchi. And you just say, how is that a Jewish dish? Well, it was a Jewish dish because it was prepared by a Jewish Holocaust survivor as she was waiting to make aliyah to Israel. So when I think of what is my favorite dish from that, every one of the dishes is connected to one of my survivors, and it would be like choosing my favorite child. But I will say that there are dishes that I make again and again. And whether they're my favorites or not, they seem to represent, for me, the stories in the book. There is a lentil soup recipe from a Sephardic survivor, part of my culture is Sephardic. My grandfather's family was expelled from Spain and they ended in Greece and so that represents that part of my heritage. And I think it's one of my favorite recipes for that reason. And it is so easy and so delicious and so practical. And I think it has every factor in it that represents the Sephardic community and the Greek community during the Holocaust, because it's inexpensive, it's fast, it's nutritious, it's hearty, it's sturdy and it's a very practical dish and they are very practical people, so I'll go with that.
GR: You're listening to the casual conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with June Hersh. She's a food writer and speaker and the author of a new book titled, “The Flavor of Upstate New York: Iconic Dishes, Delicious History and Reinvented Recipes” and we've been discussing her book. Well, I want to leave the topic of food and Holocaust and come back now to upstate. And I intimated this before when I was talking about the potato chip, but it seems to me that the iconic dishes of upstate New York seem on the whole to be very accessible, unpretentious, one could even say working class. And I was just wondering, does upstate boast any signature dishes that would be considered high cuisine that you might find in a top restaurant in New York City, for example?
JH: Well, I would say that if you look at the dishes that were made like Chicken French, which is really, you know, chicken française, it was a riff on veal française, but it was, became a very iconic dish in upstate New York. So much so that the chef that I guess innovated it, he didn't invent it, he actually wrote an entire book about ‘Frenching’ food and how to turn it into that. And that's definitely something that you would find in an upscale restaurant, probably one that actually has a tablecloth on the table as opposed to most upstate dishes, which I think are best eaten on a slightly worn wooden table that maybe has a nice little wobble to it. I also think when you go back to some of the restaurants in New York like Delmonico's and the Waldorf and some of the really high end New York restaurants, they co-opted some of the upstate inventions, one of them being Thousand Island dressing. And you know, when you think about it, you say, oh, well, Thousand Island dressing, that's not a big deal. But believe it or not, it became a real taste sensation at the high end New York hotels. And they, it was the dressing and the condiment of the day. And so you look at something is as simple as that. And actually, it elevates a lot of foods and you found it in the very best restaurants. It was considered haute cuisine.
GR: Okay, so the other thing that seems to me when I sort of add them all up is a lot of the dishes also seem pretty heavy. You know, like chicken riggies, salt potatoes.
JH: Yep.
GR: Are there any signature dishes of upstate that we might say, this is on the lighter side, this is a light dish?
JH: Well, if you can consider Utica greens as being kind of good for you and a little lighter, I'll go with maybe. (laughter) But for the most part, these are, as you said and I agree and not that they are still today, but their origins were for working class people, they were very practical foods. These were resourceful people who took their backgrounds and interpreted it in dishes that were accessible and easy and also encouraged beer drinking because they were very salty foods. And the tavern and the barkeeps they were very shrewd. They knew that if you were going to serve food at your bar, you want to make sure that they are not thirst quenching but they really make you want to buy a beer or two. And so I'm going to say, no, they are not for the most part. A lot of them are light on the wallet, but they are definitely not light on your waistline. I would not look to upstate New York food as health food, although you can certainly prepare some of them in more healthy ways. You know, you take spiedies for example, that's really just a wonderful skewer of grilled chicken, nothing too heavy about that. And, you know, put that with a salad or some of the fabulous cheese and apples and you pair that together. I mean, that's just lovely and light and delicious, wash it down with a Riesling, I think you have a pretty perfect Sunday lunch. But yeah, I'm going to say they’re stick-to-your-ribs food for the most part.
GR: So you mentioned Utica greens, that's probably my favorite upstate dish. I mean, maybe if calories and fat weren't an issue, I might say Buffalo wings. But anyway, I have a confession here, this is an upstate confession.
JH: Okay.
GR: You mentioned small potatoes at the beginning. I have to say, I am not getting those. I mean, just explain briefly if you could, what I'm missing there because I like a good mashed potato, I like, you know, a golden potato, baked. But I've never quite understood the hype over those.
JH: Really? See, and the first time I made them, I said to myself, well, how is that so different? I usually toss a little salt in the water when I boil a potato. But the product of salt potatoes, it really is completely different. And I think what happens is, is that when you put this copious amount of salt, I mean, it's like half a cup of salt to a pound and a half of potatoes. I mean, that's a lot of salt when you put that in it chemically, you know, from a scientific standpoint, changes the way the water boils and so what it really does is it cooks the potato from the inside out rather than the outside in. So instead of the outside getting soft in the inside staying firm, the inside gets creamy and the outside, and I think the trick to salt potatoes is when you take them out of the water, you have to let them sit because you have to let the salt complete its destiny and you have to let it dry out the skin, leave it's salty crust outside. So that when you, and I almost eat them not piping hot because I really like them to sit and I have a recipe in the book for salt potatoes. And again, I'm looking at the recipe and it looks like, well, that's pretty easy, it's salt and water, potatoes. But then you put butter on it and you pour this melted butter on it. I think it's everything that I love about a good potato. It's got the crust like a baked potato, it's got the interior like a mashed potato. I don't know, I think it's luscious, try it again.
GR: Yeah, I'm doing it wrong. You've given me the key here, okay, and I understand the concept now, so I will try it again.
JH: And listen, you're in Syracuse. It was the Salt City! I mean, for goodness sakes, you’ve got to make a salt potato.
GR: So we have about 3 minutes left, and I want to squeeze in two questions, if I could. So, the second one is longer, so we'll be really quick on the first one, just a few seconds on this. Just out of curiosity, you're obviously an expert cook. When you were trying to make an upstate dish, what's your biggest flop you've ever had?
JH: So my flop was baking grape pie because the first time I did it, I didn't, you've got to pinch them and slip the grapes out of their skins and I mistakenly threw the skins away. I didn't follow my own directions. And I read about it again and again and again, the skins is what gives it the fabulous texture. So I now made these and I boiled down the grapes, but I didn't have enough skins in there. I wasn't going to pull them out of my garbage, so I had to make it again and this time I was very careful. I added the skins and it gave the jam the perfect texture, so it all held together, happens to be delicious. If you have never made it, try it. It's like eating Manischewitz jam. That's what it is.
GR: And my last question is, if I'm lucky enough to be coming over to your house for dinner and you were making me a complete upstate meal of your own personal favorites, what would that menu look like?
JH: All right. So I'm going to offer you quickly two options. I love doing breakfast for dinner. I think breakfast for dinner is one of my most fun things to eat.
GR: Okay, I'm going to interrupt real quick and connect you back to your Holocaust discussion. You just connected me to my mother because she would occasionally make us breakfast for dinner when she ran out of ideas.
JH: Oh, exactly. It is definitely a mom hack, there’s no question, breakfast for dinner.
GR: So what would it be?
JH: So, my breakfast for dinner would come from the Borscht Belt because I grew up going to the Catskills on a very regular basis. Proceeds from the sale of the book benefit the Catskills Borscht Belt Museum, so it has a very special place in my heart. And I would make you a plate of cheese blintzes with sour cream on the side. You would have lox in the cream sauce and pickled herring in the cream sauce. You would absolutely have thinly, perfectly sliced smoked salmon. And I would probably then bring in maybe like a lovely champagne similar to what used to be grown because we were the, New York was the champagne capital of the world. And I would make us a fabulous mimosa with champagne from there. I would absolutely have to have cheese from the Hudson Valley because that's perfect. I'd get foie gras from the Hudson Valley and I would make like almost like a chop liver paté with it. And we would spread that on some crackers and we would have ourselves a little feast.
GR: Yeah. And it sounds like that is a breakfast that leads directly to a nap (laughter). Well that sounds wonderful, we'll have to leave it there. That was June Hersh. And again, her new book is titled, “The Flavor of Upstate New York: Iconic Dishes, Delicious History and Reinvented Recipes”. June, this is a fascinating book, it's got so many different components to it. The history, the stories, the actual recipes, really nice work. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me about it.
JH: Thank you, have a delicious day. It's my absolute pleasure.
GR: You’ve been listening to the Campbell conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.
