JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
In the early 1970s, writer Sam Smith was just a fan sitting up in the balconies of Madison Square Garden.
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UNIDENTIFIED SPORTSCASTER #1: Jackson getting a beautiful feed from Lucas.
SUMMERS: Down on the court was a young Phil Jackson playing for the New York Knicks.
SAM SMITH: Phil was dribbling the ball, and we were all yelling, Phil, pass it to somebody. Please pass it.
SUMMERS: Jackson would go on to become a legendary NBA coach, and he and Smith would one day become friends, brought together by one of the greatest basketball players who ever played.
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UNIDENTIFIED SPORTSCASTER #2: Jordan. Open. Chicago with the lead.
SMITH: Serendipity, happenstance - he ends up getting hired by the Bulls, and I end up being the beat writer on basketball. And, you know, 35 years later, we figured out something to do.
SUMMERS: And now they've written a book together, a look back at the 75 greatest players in the history of the NBA. It's called "Masters Of The Game."
PHIL JACKSON: Sam has, you know, taken me by, you know, the nap (ph) of my neck in retirement and said, what do you think we talk about 75 for 75?
SUMMERS: The book is a celebration of the league's history.
SMITH: You know, Americans aren't great in history in general. I think there's a lack of appreciation of how talented these players were. You know, they had second jobs. Well, the reason they had second jobs is they weren't making much money.
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UNIDENTIFIED SPORTSCASTER #3: The No. 2 scorer in the NBA, at 6-5, 220 pounds, from the Cincinnati Royals, Oscar Robertson.
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SMITH: Oscar Robertson had worked for Pepsi, but Oscar Robertson could play in any era. Phil played in that era. He coached. I saw those players play and know how talented they were - Elgin Baylor, Bill Russell - and I always think it's important, especially to know their history.
SUMMERS: But when we spoke about the book, I had to ask about the player both Jackson and Smith know best - Michael Jordan.
SMITH: Well, he has a sickness. It's called competitiveness. Michael wasn't the greatest shooter, certainly not when he came up. And certainly, players rebounded, played defense - Bill Russell. People passed the ball better. So how is it that, you know, in these debates, Michael could be considered the greatest of all time? And it was this incredible mindset he had toward competition, to committing to the game. You know, we sort of talk about it now - players take off, miss games. And I know Phil will probably remember this. Michael used to come through the trainer's room and make sure everybody was out on the court. None of this sitting around, you know? And that was just for practice.
SUMMERS: And, Phil, I know that you coached Jordan and were there when he won all six of his championships. Yet in the book, you said something that sort of really surprised me, that you say you mostly stayed away from Michael. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship that the two of you had as player and coach and what it was like sort of being around and having the ability to work with a superstar with that sort of star power?
JACKSON: You know, it was an age when we were still flying commercial. Hotels that were, you know, Marriotts, etc. And, you know, I was on the top floor with Michael, and there were maybe six people in the hotel staff standing outside his room waiting to get an autograph - you know, a waitress and a waiter and a guy who was, you know, baggage claim kid and so forth. And it was a myriad of pressures that went into this young athlete that had really very little protection. So I kept away from him and let him have his private life because I think that was the most valuable thing for him to have.
SUMMERS: So much of this book takes a look back at the history of the league, but I'm curious for each of you, what do you hope for the future of the NBA?
SMITH: Maybe less gambling apps for the current time. You know, I know we - Phil and I talk about it in the book, you know, some of the rules that, you know, have sort of been eased so much - traveling and palming. If you look back and compare the way the players played the game, I think somewhat lack of fundamentals. If there's sort of a, you know, a melding of some of the great parts of the history of the game as well as the great athleticism and brilliance of some of these players now, it's some combination with the past, I'd love to see that.
JACKSON: I think we've become kind of stagnant in the game and, you know, the players have grown into a game that's - the court's too small for them. This court needs to be much longer, by at least 10 feet or more, so the game becomes a running game again. And it's become stagnant, and 3-point line has become, you know, kind of like a characteristic of this game. It's a 3-point shooting game.
SUMMERS: Last thing, Phil, I do want to ask you, having now written this book alongside Sam Smith and talked about all of these incredible players, how do you think about your own legacy as a part of the league?
JACKSON: Wow. Unbelievable. Lucky. And, you know, the period of time that I was able to coach has become, like, legendary. That era, I think it's over. You know, that's part of what basketball is, is, you know, examining the history of the game and looking back and looking forward to what can happen in the future with the game.
SUMMERS: That's NBA coach Phil Jackson and journalist Sam Smith. Their new book is called "Masters Of The Game." Thanks to both of you for being here.
SMITH: Thank you.
JACKSON: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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