Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. One of the biggest surprises in the recent elections was the change in party control of the Onondaga County Legislature, which Democrats won all six seats that they contested, shifting the balance of power from 12 to 5 in favor of Republicans, to 10 to 7 in favor of Democrats. Joining me today to parse out why that happened and what it might mean are two members of the legislature who won their elections. Maurice, or Mo Brown, a Democrat, represents the 15th district, which is made up of a ring within the city of Syracuse on the east, south and west sides, kind of like a horseshoe around the inner part of the city there. David Knapp, a Republican, represents the 12th district, which includes the towns of Pompey, Fabius, Tully, Lafayette, and parts of DeWitt and Manlius. And as full disclosure, I should also mention that Legislator Brown was a student way back when, in one of my classes at Syracuse University, and I've also worked with Legislator Knapp in a veterans-oriented program at the university. Legislator Brown, let me start with you. Did you expect your party to pick up this many seats in the legislature? Were you surprised?
Maurice Brown: A little surprised, but there were, you know, telling signs that this could happen. And we kind of prepared for the possibility that it might happen. I put it at 10% to someone before. When you looked around the country, there were similar swings. The most notable example locally, when, Congresswoman Stefanik was thinking about running or she was going to get an appointment with the Trump administration, she turned it down. And the rumor was because they were expecting that seat to be vulnerable. If the North Country seat is vulnerable, then everything else, you know, logically is in play. And that kind of held true, you know, we saw swings as big as I think 14 points in district four, but, and I think the average was like a nine point swing. So yeah, the community wanted something different.
GR: And Legislator Knapp, same question to you. Did you see this coming?
David Knapp: Well, you know, like Mo, you know, there were some concerning things for me. You know, I think there might have been a little complacency out there, number one, and number two, you know, certainly when early voting kicked off and we saw the enthusiasm of the Democrats coming out to vote and, you know, the makeup of the early vote, I was, you know, I was definitely concerned a little bit. You know, there was a few seats that I knew were going to be really, really difficult. But there was a few that I thought we were okay in, that it'd be closer than usual, but they probably pull it through, that didn't. And so from that standpoint, yeah, I was surprised that, in a couple of seats, I'm not surprised in a few others.
GR: I want to come back to something you mentioned and ask Legislator Brown about it in a second. But let me ask you this question first, Legislator Knapp.
DK: Yeah.
GR: You had the luxury of not having an opponent, as I recall.
DK: Yup.
GR: But you also still went door to door and talked to people, too, as I believe. So, did you get any kind of inkling from the ground that something was different this year from doorstep conversations?
DK: Yeah, yeah. You know, I think people were, you know, not as much looking at local issues as national issues, you know, in talking to them. And, you know, so there definitely was a concern, you know, with the government shut down, you know, being the way it was and, you know, and just, you know, the polarization of things at the national level that, you know, inevitably are going to, you know, siphon down to the local level. That was a concern. You know, I talked to, just yesterday, I talked to a friend of mine who's a Democrat. And, you know, good guy, known him forever. So I was talking to him about it, and he just said, you know, overall, I've been pretty satisfied with the governance of Onondaga County. And, you know, in years past, I would, you know, maybe, crossover and vote for a Republican and stuff. But he said this year, with everything going on, I just found myself, you know, staying on the Democrat line and not even thinking about, you know, something else. And so, you know, I think that was absolutely a big piece of it.
GR: Well, Legislator Brown, Legislator Knapp mentioned the enthusiasm from the early voting on the part of the Democrats. And I'm going to put my political scientist hat on here for a second. Usually when you see something like this, particularly something that is up and down the ballot, it's often turnout, it's more about turnout than persuasion. Was your sense that it was, part of the phenomenon was just more Democrats making the point of going out and voting in a local election, and then maybe capitalizing on that ambivalence that on the Republican side, that legislator Knapp mentioned?
MB: I think it was a combination of all the things. I want to say turnout was 29% last week, which I'm told isn't particularly high, but they are correct. Like Dem turnout was slightly higher, but there was also Republican turnout being slightly lower. Like it was a combination of things. I think we as the Democratic caucus that we're running, we did a good job of highlighting the similarities between the national and the local. And I think the, you know, the Republican Party didn't do a good enough job of standing up to Trump. We acknowledge that, you know, Trump is a problem. Trump is making it hard for Republicans to run, and he's making it hard for Americans to live. I have a bias, and I won't run from that. But at the same time, the community wants people who are going to stand up to him. And when the Republicans didn't do it, and we did, I think it just created such a playing field that favored us heavily and we kind of never yielded it.
GR: Well, let me build on something that you've said there, and I'll ask this question to Legislator Knapp, but it has to do with why now in the sense of Onondaga County. Because we do know that President Trump has not been especially popular here for a while. And, Legislator Knapp, do you think if we're trying to answer the question, why did this happen in this election, as opposed to say, you know, two years ago or two years before that, is it, do you think it's the phenomenon that Legislator Brown's pointing out that there was a sense that Republicans aren't doing enough to provide some kind of boundary or guardrail on this president?
DK: Yeah, you know, potentially. But, you know, there's a few local, you know, hot button issues too that probably didn't help us as far as, you know, there's been a lot of talk about the inquiry and for example, whether that's, you know, a good investment or not, you know, so that certainly, you know, didn't necessarily help our cause. But, you know, we still got to do a little bit of a postmortem on why Republicans didn't get out. You know, just as an example, town of Manlius had 600 Republicans less than 2023 come out and vote. And why, you know? It's not like they came out and voted against us, they just stayed home. And so, you know, and in a town like Manlius, that's, you know, very close. You can't, yeah, you're not going to win with 600 people staying home. And so, you know, that's something we need to work on. It's going to be really interesting this next year with at least Stefanik running for governor. I'm really curious to see how she runs as far as, you know, she's been pretty close with the Trump administration in the past. Curious to see how she does this.
GR: Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine in a blue state, she's going to have to separate a little bit, but we'll have to see. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO public Media. I'm Grant Reeher and I'm speaking with Onondaga County legislators David Knapp and Maurice Brown. So, Legislator Brown, I'm curious, what difference is this going to make in the county's affairs and policies going forward? Legislator Knapp just mentioned the aquarium, for example. But what kinds of things do you see might be different than they would have been had the Republicans kept the majority?
MB: So, a lot of our candidates, myself included, we ran on transparency. One of the biggest things that we heard from voters at the doors was it just felt like decisions were happening around them. It feels like Micron is happening around them, it feels like the aquarium is happening around them, and they didn't really feel a part of that conversation. You know, this community, I think 81 is the biggest example, but we will discuss a topic. We will talk about the pros and cons of a big proposal for a long time. And it didn't happen with those projects, and it stood out to people. People want to be a part of government, people want a government that includes them. So it's something we plan on prioritizing as far as, you know, town halls, public forums, just ways for people to get more engaged with the government. I think that's a good start, and it's something we're, you know, looking forward to delivering on.
GR: Yeah. You mentioned several things I wanted to ask the two of you about. And so, Legislator Knapp, I’ll come back. You mentioned the aquarium, it has become something of a lightning rod of criticism for the McMahon administration and more generally, the legislature. Do you think there might be some blockage to it now, at this point?
DK: Well, you know, a lot of it has to do with what the legislature could do or can't do and where we are in the project. You know, I haven't talked to the county executive about it since the election. So, you know, I don't know what more contracts are in place, you know, a lot of the money's already been spent. I mean, the opening is, you know, nine months away. So, you know, it might be something where, you know, in that particular instance, you know, where the ship has sailed, so to speak. But, yeah, that's, you know, that's part of the discussion.
GR: And Legislator Brown, I definitely want to get your perspective on this. A big issue, at least it's been going on as long as I've been in Syracuse, which is now going on 35 years, is the relationship between the city and the surrounding towns and villages. And now we'll have a Democratic mayor and a Democratic majority in the legislature. Do you think that the city will have kind of a relatively stronger hand, or there'll be more active support for it at the county level than there was before?
MB: So I have a bias, I do represent a district located entirely within the city of Syracuse. So I would say, yeah, I would like for the city to be a bigger part of that conversation. Not necessarily that the city will have a disproportionate one. I just feel it's been balanced historically. So it's more balancing of that about, you know, 48% of the city residents pay 100% of the tax base. You know, we know these numbers. But a lot of the things that are located within the city, like the hospital, like the universities, these are the biggest, you know, job providers in the area. So like, the city is paying for those, but a lot of those, you know, employees, a lot of those jobs are going to Dewitt, are going to Salina or going to Cicero. So yeah, figuring out how to balance that, I think is going to be a lot easier said than done. But I do hope it's something we can, you know, prioritize. But because like I said, I do think historically it's been imbalanced, in favor of the suburbs at the expense of the city.
GR: And Legislator Knapp, so, you represent a mostly rural area geographically, and then you've got some suburbs then, too. And even those suburbs are kind of, some of them are a bit outer suburbs. Does this possibility of what I've suggested, does it concern you at all as a representative?
DK: No, actually no, not at all. Because I, you know, I always believe that the county can succeed if the city isn't succeeding. And, so over the years, you know, I actually in my original district had a one election district in outer Comstock, which was, that was an interesting district. But you know, so with like, with the Agriculture Council which I lead, for example, we've done a lot of work with urban agriculture to encourage, you know, we helped get the Brady Farm started which is a six acre farm on the south side of Syracuse, largest urban farm in the country. And, you know, working with the Martin Luther King School, you know, doing raised beds and things like that to, you know, talk about where your food comes from, growing your own food. And you know I voted years ago to help the city pave some streets when they were in tough shape, some of the streets around the county complex downtown and things like that, Adams Street and a few others. So, you know, I don't mind that at all. And obviously the lead issue is, you know, has no boundaries. It's in the city, in the towns, you know, a lot of old houses. My house was built in 1835, you know, there's lead paint all over the place. And so, I don't, you know, I don't see a problem. And I, you know, obviously a balance is what's needed. And, yeah, I've always said the city pays taxes too. So, yeah, no, I'm not afraid of that of that at all.
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Onondaga County legislators Maurice Brown and David Knapp, and we've been discussing the recent county election results and what they might suggest going forward. Well, we've mentioned this a couple times, and my view, it's the elephant in the room for the county and the city… Micron. It's the biggest issue and opportunity for this region and at least a generation, perhaps more than that. But there have been concerns that have been raised about this project's impact, about how inclusively distributed the benefits from it will be, whether the city will start to become gentrified, who's going to take on the responsibility for the necessary growth and housing? As well as environmental and infrastructure concerns. This place is going to use a lot of energy, a lot of water. So, it's been my impression, and either one of you can correct me on this, but it's been my impression that most of those concerns have been the loudest on the Democratic side when they've been raised. And so, Legislator Knapp, I wanted to ask you this question first. Do you have concerns now that the county legislature has flipped and there is a Democrat in, going to be leading the city as mayor, do you have concerns that the progress on Micron might be impacted by this change in any way?
DK: No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, the Micron project gives us the, you know, the opportunity to, you know, not only grow the community but enrich the community. And, you know, I'm a believer in the old, you know, rising tide lifts all ships. You know, we have the opportunity to do that, but we have to be, you know, mindful that, you know, there's not one community that's bearing the brunt of it or one that's getting, you know, more of the benefit than others. You know, it's not just, you know, the city of Syracuse to be concerned about. I'm concerned about, you know, farmland protection and are we going to be, you know, paving over a lot of really, really rich farmland up there for housing developments or other things that, you know, might not be long term in our best interest. And so there's a lot of things to look at here, you know, I think the opportunity, you know, goes above local politics, obviously. You know, Senator Schumer has been very involved, you know, Governor Hochul as well. And so, you know, they're going to, you know, have a, you know, they're going to be talking to us about it too, if the pendulum swings, you know, too far one way or the other.
GR: And Legislator Brown, curious to get your take on this. So do you anticipate that some of these voices of concern, and maybe voices of dissent, may get more of a hearing now than they've had before?
MB: Yeah, I am. I do think more voices will be heard and there will be more outreach than in the past, but I more think it's just the misinformation. So, I'm very informed on the project because I sit in this position, but like the average citizen isn't. So, the average citizen has questions that I just don't have because I'm able to do that much homework. I want to bring the average citizen into it, because I think once they learn, you know, about the project, they'll be into it too, I call it the, you know, the Micron promise. It’s something that's not been offered to our children before, but we're going to be able to say, if you graduate from Corcoran High School, if you graduate from Henninger in three years, you can be making 80 grand plus in your community, like to give back to your own community. We've never been able to offer that to our young people, and I think that's wholly worth pursuing because that's life changing, it's generational changing. But at the same time, if that promise costs us, you know, a great lake, if it cost us a Finger Lake because of the environmental damage, then we have to, you know, pump the brakes and evaluate how we're doing this. But having done my homework, there are, you know, reasons for pause, but no reason for stop. I think we just need to do a better job of explaining to people what's going on, how the process is happening. And because we haven't done that, there's so much skepticism, there's so much criticism of it. But I think once we do that and more people learn about it, I think more people will get on board and get excited about it like I am.
DK: I think this delay that was just announced the last week, you know, I know a lot of people were disappointed by that. Quite frankly, I'm not. It gives us a little more time to catch our breath and, you know, we were going at a really serious clip there for a while, and so it's good to, yeah, maybe slow down a little bit and give us an opportunity to, yeah, make sure everybody's getting all the information they need. Yeah, I don't mind that a bit.
GR: And let me just be clear on that, ask either of you. Do either of you have any concerns about Micron's commitment to this changing at all because of that, no?
MB: No sir, no sir.
DK: No, I don't think so. I think long term we're good.
GR: Okay. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and my guests are Onondaga County legislators David Knapp and Maurice Brown. Legislator Brown, I wanted to ask you this question, and it's a bit more sensitive. But it's a question about politics and race. And so just thinking about this election, we're going to have the first African-American mayor in Syracuse that we've ever had. Syracuse was one of two of the big five cities that didn't have an African-American mayor. The Democratic leader of the legislature, the minority leader is a woman of color. You have announced, it's part of the official record, that you're interested in becoming the chair of the legislature.
MB: Yes sir.
GR: You would be the first African-American chair of the legislature, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong on that.
MB: You are correct.
GR: Is this kind of, do you think we're at sort of an inflection moment, a threshold moment for where Syracuse is with race and politics? I don't know how you want to think about that question, but I'm curious just to see, you know, whatever your thoughts are.
MB: I mean, I think to ignore it would be irresponsible, like, full stop. It is historic. The election of Sharon Owens is literally once in a lifetime. That representation matters. To be able to see yourself in your mayor is huge, and there are people who are going to be able to see themselves in the mayor that never could before, full stop. But I don't want it to take away from that, you know, Sharon Owens has been doing great work in this community for decades. Like, she is duly qualified of her own accord. And, you know, I'd say the same about myself. I'd say the same about Lita Hernandez. Should one of us become chair, you know, we, I am a man of color, I am a black man, I will always be, there's no way around that. Lita Hernandez is, you know, Afro-Latina, she can't run from that. But I like to think that I'm qualified outside of that. You know, I served in the military, I, you know, degrees from OCC and SU. I'm connected to this community. I am qualified of my own accord. But to ignore, you know, that historic moment would be irresponsible. But I don't think it'll be as historic when we look back 10, 15 years from now, because I think it'll be a lot more common than it is at this very moment.
GR: Well, you were in my class. That should just end any discussion about that. (laughter)
MB: Exactly. I'm perfectly qualified, training of Grant Reeher.
GR: That's what we like to hear.
DK: Top of the resume right there, absolutely.
GR: So, we’ve got about 3 or 4 minutes left, and I kind of want to take some time with this last topic here. And Legislator Knapp, I'll come to you with this first. Now that the legislature is in Democratic hands, or will be in January, does it have any effect on the races for county executive or the races for Congress or, you know, or maybe just think about the transition that we just went through. The fact that there was this pretty big swing, we've only ever had Republican county executives. How do you think this is going to matter down the road?
DK: You know, it certainly makes, you know, gives people on the Democrat side an opportunity to, you know, be out there more, be in the media more, you know, and, and be heard. So, you know, as far as building a bench, so to speak, as we, you know, as we say, you know, on the political side, you know, it absolutely gives them the ability to, you know, to get more people in the mix and get their voice out that much more. So it could absolutely have an impact on the next county executive race in a couple of years or other races for higher office, absolutely.
GR: Do you think that this thing has put a chill down the spine of Ryan McMahon?
DK: You know, again, I haven't really had a long conversation with him. But, you know, I think, you know, if I was him, I'd certainly be, you know, reassessing some things about, you know, how we're doing things in communication and things like that. I still think he has an absolutely tremendous resume to run on and, you know, a lot of accomplishments. So, you know, from that standpoint, you know, he's in a nice spot. But no, you've got to keep evolving in this business or, you know, you can very, very, very quickly all of a sudden find yourself, you know, a dinosaur, so to
speak.
GR: And Legislator Brown, I was curious to get your perspective on this, too. Does this change the way that you see these big elections coming up?
MB: I think that, you know, I come from sports. It's like a track game. I think that we can't fall into that trap. Folks didn't elect us because they want us to, you know, run for higher office. You know, some of my colleagues are thinking about the executive's race or what seats can we pick up next year? But we have a chance to help people. We've not been able to do that, especially as Democrats. But we have a chance to, you know, have our voice be the loudest in county government it's ever been and we can influence policy. We can use the levers of government to help people. And I think that should be our first priority. Do we forget about the upcoming elections? Of course not. But I think that they go hand in hand. And if you're worried about winning the election and not worried about actually helping people, you can't catch both. Whereas if you try and help people, it will spill over into elections.
GR: That makes sense. Well, we're just about at the end of our time. But, you know, I was thinking about this. We're talking two days after Veterans Day, and I'm talking to two veterans. Remind me, Legislator Brown of your service branch.
MB: Yep. So I was a military police officer in the United States Army.
GR: Okay, you have that in common with Legislator Knapp, then?
DK: Absolutely.
GR: Because I know that he is an Army veteran and actually a West Point graduate. So, on behalf of the program and myself and anybody listening, let me just as a close wish both of you a happy Veterans Day, two days late. But thank you both for your service. Both as in the military, but also in the county legislature, it's a very important public service that doesn't always get the attention it deserves. So, thanks to both of you, really appreciate you taking the time for being on the program.
DK: Thank you.
MB: Thanks for your support, it’s appreciated.
GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media Conversations and the Public Interest.
