Stephanie Miner served two terms as mayor of the City of Syracuse, from 2010-2018. Before that, she served on the Syracuse Common Council. Now, she teaches at Colgate University, and has written a political memoir titled "Madam Mayor: Love and Loss in an American City."
Program Transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. My guest today is Stephanie Miner. She served two terms as mayor of the city of Syracuse beginning in 2010, and prior to that, she was a Syracuse Common Councilor at large. She also ran for New York State Governor in 2018 on the Serve America Movement party line. And currently she teaches at Colgate University. She's with me today because she has published a new political memoir. It's titled “Madam Mayor: Love and Loss in an American City.” Former Mayor Miner, welcome back to the program, and congratulations on your book.
Stephanie Miner: Thank you. Grant. It's great to be back. I'm a little out of practice. I haven't done this in a while, so I remember the rules are try to not answer the question and be brief as a politician. So now that I'm an author, I will try to answer the questions, and be verbose.
GR: Limited, verbose. But I will just say, I remember when you were in office, I thought you answered the questions there, too. And in that vein, before we start this, I should note for our listeners for full disclosure that I've spoken to you in the past about writing this book, and I've read earlier versions of it and offered comments, so I should put that out there. But let me just in a way, kind of follow up on what I just said here for my first question. And note that because of what I teach and what I write about, I've read a fair number of these kinds of books that deal with state and local level politics. And I think one of the ways that yours is different and notable is that there in the book, there's a lot of substantial treatments of things like city finance, the different policy challenges that cities face, both they have faced currently facing will face, as well as the more political and personal stories that, you know, people would expect. And something like this. And I wanted to know whether that substantial, content emphasis reflected something important about you as a politician. Were you do you think you were a little bit different kind of politician that way?
SM: I do think so. And I, you know, I think that about me, but I had many people tell me that throughout my political career that I was on the wonky side, you know, and some would say, derisively, by the way, you're too smart to be in politics, too dumb to be an academic. I, I think you know what this book really is in the best sense of, writing in books is it's it's my voice. And my voice is to, you know, both be substantive. But it's also my experience. And I was aiming to have my experience as mayor, you know, make, make the, policy part of it interesting and applicable to people. So they would understand, because fundamentally, I wrote this book trying to answer the question, why is change so difficult?
You know, there's a saying like, you can't fight City Hall, and yet it often feels like City Hall can't do anything. At least when I was the occupant of City Hall, I frequently felt that way. And this book is an attempt to explain, you know, why federalism matters when you're a mayor? Why the, the division of power between the federal government, state government, and local governments, matter and how it impacts policy and why money matters and why the the lack of a sustained urban policy since really, Ronald Reagan, the impacts that it's had on infrastructure, education, financing, all these things that you can imagine. And again, I was using my experience to, you know, put some meat on the bones.
GR: Do you think that what you just said is the most important thing about cities and local governments that citizens least understand or appreciate that, you know, cities occupy a particular place, but there are all these other forces acting upon them. Is that I mean, what if I asked you just straight up what is the thing that most citizens least understand about cities? What would you say?
SM: I would say that it is that there is this sense that mayors and cities have a great deal of power. But in a federalist system, like we currently have, the power is diffuse and having power, but not having money, or having power that is significantly, impacted by what the state says you can and can't do, you know, has an ability to, or will, limit the policy choices that you can make.
But on the, you know, on the flip side of that, that's the sort of negative case, the positive case about local politics, particularly with a city like Syracuse, and its size is you do have the power to implement change quickly, measure that change and fix what doesn't work, or attempt to fix what does, what doesn't work. And, you know, so you can be very facile, as a mayor in a city the size of Syracuse and, and implement policies, which was one of the one of the things I most enjoyed about being mayor and most enjoyed about local politics, that the the issues that we were trying to impact and fix were the issues that impacted people in their everyday lives.
GR: So you've got a lot of stories and the book that, are moments where particularly early on where where you kind of have a almost like an epiphany or I might say a holy crap moment where it's like, where where it's like, oh, I, I am, I do have this power, you know, people are looking to me to do acts or see me as a leader. On why is there a particular story that you could relate quickly that you think kind of illustrates that? Because I found those very interesting.
SM: I think, look, all of the stories and there were different moments throughout my eight years as mayor where I had that feeling in different times. But for me, I think the most profound was that my first name, Stephanie, disappeared. And for eight years, people either called me mayor or they called me boss. Some of the some of the people that worked for me would call me boss.
And so, I, you know, after I left the mayor's office, I wouldn't answer if people said Stephanie. I mean, that's like a profound change. And now, you know, I've gone back to my first name. I will run into people and they'll say, mayor, mayor. And I like I, you know, and they almost have to yell it for me to pay attention to it. So it was the sense of for eight years I lost, you know, I lost or my identity was subsumed into my title. And then you have to go back to having your identity, you know, become, you know, preeminent in your first name and who you are. It's not related to your job.
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm speaking with Stephanie Miner. The former Syracuse mayor has written a book titled “Madam Mayor: Love and Loss in an American City.” Well, this is, in this similar vein, but more, more profound and more personal. I wanted to pursue the book's title a little, which is “Love and Loss in an American City.” And one aspect of that, of course, is very personal for you. You know, your late husband, Jack Mannion, to talk about in the book, but it obviously I think that title refers to other things as well. And, I think there are more political as well as personal. I was just wondering if you could unpack that a little bit as far as what that meaning is in the book.
SM: Sure. And by the way, this is probably the 35th idea of a title that I had. And it took me a while to land on it. But, you know, the, the, “Love and Loss in an American City.” It's a story about how I loved politics and loved government and how I have frequent losses in it, but still loved it.
So that sense of that you can love somebody, love something, and really work hard at it and still lose one of the titles that I had in my mind for both the chapter and the title for the book is wrestling with an octopus, because there are many days where I felt like, okay, I've, I've got this problem. I figured it out and I've, you know, I've pinned it. And then another tentacle comes up and slaps across the face. And just like that's what being mayor is like, you're just constantly wrestling. And when you think you pinned it, something else comes up. But later on, when I was, writing the book, I was thinking about, processing my grief over the loss of my husband, who was a, you know, a partner par excellence in, my political career and the sense of community and how, you know, loss is an inevitable part of life losses, an inevitable part of politics.
And a good friend of mine who said to me, you know, the seeds of every defeat are planted in a victory. And the second part of the title in an American city really is this idea that Syracuse is very emblematic of a, of an experience that cities across the United States have gone through and are going through once a very, very prosperous city, one of the, you know, most prosperous cities, top 30 in the United States. And then now our indices are, you know, indices of desperation, of poverty, job loss, unemployment, economic recession. And so using this idea of, you know, love and loss and an American experience, and trying to use the particular of my experience as mayor in Syracuse to illustrate, illustrate the general of what it's like to govern in the United States, you know, in a, in a city.
GR: Yeah. I think it's a great title. And I, I do remember some of the earlier ones, and I think you, I think you landed on the right one on, iteration 35. So that's good.
SM: At least it could have been 350. You know, you just kind of keep going through it.
GR: Well, obviously, I think a lot of the, media and public attention that this book is going to attract will be concerned with your retelling of your experiences with then-Governor Andrew Cuomo. He's now running for mayor of New York City. And you were experiencing his political bullying. I will just call it that. Before it became more widely known and exposed, although I think it was something of an open secret in Albany for a long time. Is there one story that you think best exemplifies that aspect of his political style?
SM: Well, I think that's the story. When they came out with what they said was a policy that was going to reform the pension issues. And I was quoted as saying, well, I have questions about it. And then he sent the lieutenant governor into Syracuse to go meet with the editorial board to threaten to have the state take over the city of Syracuse.
I think that, you know, when a mayor of the fifth largest city asks and says that she has substantive questions about a policy, and he responds by saying, well, you know, you should ask for a financial control board in other words, you know, we're going to take over governance of your city. That to me, was, you know, one illustration. But as you know, because you've read the book, there are many, you know, Andrew Cuomo and I, it's almost Shakespearean. I mean, I think this book was destined to come out in March because of my publisher and timelines. I mean, I had no idea that Andrew Cuomo was going to, you know, run for mayor, much less announce in the same month that my book was coming out. It's just it's, you know, just the universe, I suppose. But we have very different ways that we look at leadership and think about it. My issues with Andrew Cuomo were substantive and policy-based. And he responded, in tactics that were bullying, and, you know, in ways that were political and personal and the I think the perversity of it is that it, it, you know, made me larger in the public, mind, you know, you have a very powerful, tall male governor, punching down on a short at the time, young looking, female mayor and people expect their mayors to fight for their constituents.
I mean, that's what people want mayors to do. So there's also a sense, well, she's just doing her job. And you know, and very it was very clear, that he was, going to take out his frustrations or his disagreements with me, on the people of the city of Syracuse, based on my policy, you know, my disagreements with him on policy. And that was a difficult thing for me to navigate because it's not fair. It's not right. But there's also, you know, I can't change who I am. And ultimately, I had to kind of come to peace with this idea. Well, the people the city of Syracuse elected me four times, and they knew, you know, that I was a fighter and that that's what I did.
But being, you know, lots of sleepless nights about, geez, you know, is it right for me to disagree with him? If you know, when he's threatening funding on a housing project or the school district? Those are hard decisions to make. His view of leadership is, you know, when the media cycle say the best words. And if you win, you know, you get, to the victor goes the spoils. And if you lose, you get nothing.
GR: All of this. Well, all of this is sounding very familiar. More recently, as well. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with former City of Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner. She's published a new political memoir. It's titled “Madam Mayor: Love and Loss in an American City.” And we've been discussing her book.
I want to continue on what we were talking about before the break, about your experiences with Andrew Cuomo. And again, because he's running for mayor, get some further thoughts about that first, kind of a more general question that's related to this. I've heard you on many occasions speak of a certain kind of political corruption. Not money in a drawer or money in someone's freezer, but of putting position over purpose. And, do you think that that's a good description of a political failing that he suffered from, Andrew Cuomo?
SM: I don't know. I think that our system has these our system has now incentivized people where ambition is more important than solving problems. And, you know, ambition always used to be part of the political, your political analysis. But there was also a big part of it, which was, well, I've got to have a track record to run on, and I've got to be able to say to people I've done X, Y, Z, or I'm going to do X, Y, Z.
And now with just all the money flowing through the system, it's almost like you can create your own reality. And so, you know, with Andrew Cuomo, what I, I think the way he left the gubernatorial office is sort of, emblematic or illustrative of this, illustrative of this, this what is happening. He left, because of, you know, sexual harassment, workplace scandals. But prior to him leaving, he was reelected when there was a huge scandal with the Buffalo Billion. Right. A, you know, allegations of bribery judges in the Southern District saying this is the worst form of government and the worst form that we've seen of pay to play. And on top of it being, you know, just filled with corruption, it was a substantive failure, too.
And across the Thruway, we in upstate saw all of his policies were substantive failures. But Albany in the policymakers in Albany weren't really interested in that. And yet, sexual harassment. And clearly, I'm, you know, I, I don't want to say that that is less than but Andrew, the way Andrew Cuomo governed and his failures, I think were political and they needed to be addressed through a political process. And they were, you know, and so now we have this where he's coming back and he just he's using the money. A lot of it is taxpayer dollars to just have this bullhorn, which says, I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything wrong. And look at all the great things I did.
And there's for a whole host of reasons. There is nobody really on the other side saying, oh, wait a second, you know, did you really? More people left New York. We lost congressional seats. Your prime economic development policies, remember start up New York, Buffalo, billion casinos, all of that were just complete, subsidy failures and ethical failures and legal, legally corrupt as well.
GR: Yeah. Those are important points. Very personal question here. You answer it very quickly, I'm sure. But, when all this stuff hit and we learned more about all these things regarding his administration, I'll throw in a couple others, nursing homes and the number regarding Covid deaths, how all that was handled, his own, his own personal book deal and having staff work on that. He made millions of dollars from that. Did you have a moment of schadenfreude or at least sort of. Gee, I you know, this is what I was saying, people and, you know, did you have that sense of vindication at all?
SM: You know, not really, because as I said, I had started sort of this processing of my relationship with Andrew Cuomo back when I was in the midst of my struggles with him and realizing that the only way that I could govern and the only way I could live with myself is to say, you know, this is the this is the way I think is right. And this is the way I think it should be done. And so by the time all of those things happened, you know, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Lord Acton says he had absolute power, and he had never shown himself to be very interested in policy. And, you know, when you have a public health crisis, you need policy experts to guide you through it.
So there was, for me, there was a sense of I'm not surprised, but I'm saddened by it because I'm saddened by a political system that allows that to happen. And, you know, and allows real suffering to almost go on rectified or unwitnessed because of the, short attention spans. And, you know, again, money can buy big bullhorns and you can just scream into it or pay people to scream into it toxic things on Twitter or X and, you know, and it just takes people's attention away.
GR: If you're just joining us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and my guest is former Syracuse Mayor Stephanie Miner. One last question on Cuomo. I'll move on to other things. What do you make of his new run for city mayor? Are you surprised?
SM: No, I, I'm not I'm kind of surprised that he is, a frontrunner, but he has a lot of money. He's a very skilled political operative. And, you know, our country is in a place where, you know, loud voices are winning right now. So, you know, he is somebody who has spent his entire life running for office.
And then to get kicked out of it that way. I didn't think that, you know, I thought he would always try again. You know, he's already been through several iterations. There was there already Cuomo 2.0 when he ran for attorney general. So now this is Cuomo 3.0 or 4.0.
GR: Interesting. Yeah. There is a there is a history of this. So, let's talk about, your political career going back to being on the city council and then as mayor, you were, in many respects, I think, something of a, like a skeptical soothsayer, you know, you warned us about. And you really took a lot of flak regarding the Destiny mall project on all the tax breaks. You were almost at one point on standing alone on that, and then again, you know, you were talking about how the governor was treating upstate cities and those policy issues. I wanted to get your take, given that history on micron, because that's something that has kind of happened after you've left office. That one, to me, seems like a better bet than the Buffalo billions. And, you know, the, Film Hub and all these other things, and certainly a better bet. And Destiny Mall. I wonder how you're viewing. Well.
SM: I think substantively, when you look at the federal government's investment and the international need for chips and to secure ourselves from Chinese influence in Taiwan, that all of those partners, it makes, it makes intellectual sense. My skepticism, though, and this is, you know, I'm a product of my experience is is things that the government gets into for economic development, where they're the primary mover, never materialized the way they say it's going to materialize.
And, you know, we have a free market system. Government should do the things that government is good at roads, bridges, picking up trash, water, educating children, those kind of things. I think when you make the government, the government a partner in a free market economy, it's very, very dangerous. Because what happens is I think the, the nature of doing things for profit, they're all sudden start looking at the, at the government as, instead of shareholders or customers. And so, again, I'm a product of my experience, you know, Empire Zone's destiny, start up New York film hubs, Buffalo billion, all of these things that government, Democrats and Republicans have said is going to, you know, turn up ups, turn around upstate New York's economy haven't worked, but did work, you know, building infrastructure systems that people, smart people, business people and others could take their skills and figure out how to use to make a profit.
GR: Well, I wonder now what goes what's on my mind is the President Trump certainly said a lot of people's hair on fire here in the Syracuse area when he, you know, said repeatedly that the Chips act was a terrible thing. You know, we ought to look into, seeing if we can reverse it. Would you go that far or do you. I know you're not a fan of President Trump. You've made that very clear when you were mayor. But, anyway.
SM: You know, no, I wouldn't, but as, you know, as a citizen of Syracuse and Central New York, it's troubling because there's been investments made, commitments made. And, President Trump and his administration have shown themselves to, you know, not work under traditional political rules. And the traditional political rules would be like, well, that act passed. It's done. You know, let it move its course. So, I think we're I think it's very dangerous, in terms of what Trump is doing. But I also think I, I'm troubled by whether or not the Chips Act is going to move forward. And there's the funding, but there's also the part of when you have the federal government and the state government as partners, when you have this change of leadership.
And now all of a sudden, you know, it's the cult of personality, well, then what happens? Because you have to have you know, look, the same is true for 81. You have to have some sort of consistency in order to make these changes. And these long-term policies move forward. And the kind of tumult that we're seeing in Washington that's going to flow down to, Albany in terms of money and policies, is going to impact micron 81 schools, Medicaid, Medicare, I mean, across the board, Social Security.
GR: That may be even another reason to have the kind of suspicions you have is it's unpredictable, depending on who's who's in there. And in doing it. We've only got about a minute left. I wanted to ask you this last question. And we'll see where it goes. If you answer it in a sentence. But, I was wondering about your future. Obviously, politically would be my main interest, but otherwise too. Can you imagine a scenario in which you might pursue elected office again? You've still got lots of time.
SM: Yeah. I can't, I will tell you, I loved it, and I enjoyed it, and feel profoundly grateful that I had the opportunity to do it. I didn't think about it at the time as a sacrifice, but having been out of office, I look at things and I realize I did. I sacrificed time with my family, time with my friends.
And, you know, somebody pointed out to me, I may be the one politician who, you know, when I say I want to spend more time with my family, I actually means it. But, you know, for close to 20 years, I was a slave to other people's demands on my time. And so being able to make my own calendar, being able to do the kind of things that I want, and I am, you know, I really am enjoying Colgate. It's just a it's a perfect place for me. And it gives me enough to talk about the substance of politics, and also sort of fill this niche of somebody who's run for office to talk about war stories as well. So I enjoyed, not actually writing, but I enjoyed after writing, reading, the book. I'm enjoying teaching and I'm doing some consulting for Bloomberg Philanthropies as well.
So being able to fill my time with the kind of things I want, but, still being able to say, no, you know, I'm going to take a long weekend, or. No, I, you know, I want to read this book this weekend. It's, I feel very, very lucky that I'm in a position where I can do that.
GR: Well, I'm glad you also found the time to write this book. That was Stephanie Miner. And again, her new book is titled “Madam Mayor: Love and Loss in an American City.” And if you want to learn more about Syracuse politics and policies as well as just the general culture here in this area, this is, this is your book. So, Mayor Miner, thanks so much for taking the time to talk. I really appreciate it.
SM: Thank you for having me. Grant, I appreciate it.
GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media's conversations in the public interest.
