Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations. I'm Grant Reeher. Fans of golf were recently treated to another exciting finish at the Masters tournament, and one of the Masters greatest past players, Tiger Woods has also been in the news recently. He crashed his car, he was charged with driving under the influence again and now he's checked himself into a rehab facility in Switzerland. My guest today is Gavin Newsham. He's a veteran golf writer and co-founder of "Golf Punk Magazine," and he's written a new biography of Tiger Woods’ early years leading up to when he turned professional. It's titled, "Project Tiger: The Birth of Genius and the Price of Greatness". Mr. Newsham, welcome to the program.
Gavin Newsham: Thanks for having me, Grant, really appreciate it.
GR: We appreciate you taking the time. So, let me start with, you know, your book is a lot about Tiger's father, Earl, and their relationship and I just wanted to ask you this question right out of the gate. He's got kind of a, Earl had a had a founding story, if you will, an origin story for how he decided to devote all this time to developing Tiger's golf talent. He said, you know, the kid was, I think he was, he wasn't even a year old and he demonstrated that he could swing a golf club, looked like he knew what he was doing. And so that sort of turned the light on for him and then he said, okay, I'm going to nurture and groom this. Do you think that's actually exactly true, or did his father sort of have this idea that he was going to create a golf genius from the very beginning?
GN: I think there's certainly elements of truth in it, Grant. I mean, Earl Woods, incredibly complex man, really. But he was prone to hyperbole and embellishment and exaggeration a lot. So, a lot of the stories he told about Tiger's childhood were kind of changed as the years went on, you know, because he told them so many times, but they seem to get more and more hyperbolic as it were, so he was prone to that. But all this stuff about him, you know, from everything that I've heard, everything I've spoken to, yeah, all this stuff about him, sort of getting a club in Tiger's hands when he was like ten months old is all true. But, I think it also stems from the fact that Earl had three kids from his first marriage, and he was never there for them. So, I think there's some residual guilt there also into the amount of time he plowed into Tiger and his development, certainly as a golfer, but maybe not so much as a person as, you know, as time has gone on, I think.
GR: Yeah. Well, that's actually that's an interesting juxtaposition of the children from the first marriage. That's a common, I think, pattern for fathers. Well, I know you could talk about this for the entire program because your book is really a lot about this, but just in sort of brief fashion, how did Earl approach the development of Tiger's golf talent? How would you characterize the way he went about that?
GN: I think there were several stages to it, to be honest. I mean, from the early stage that we talked about when he was ten months old and through his, you know, early years into sort of elementary school, he was a pretty happy go lucky kid, by all accounts, you know, loved playing his golf. And, you know, the golf was a fun thing to do, it wasn't something that was expected of him so much, you know, he wasn't needed to be on the golf course every single day, you know, he had a pretty normal childhood. But I think once that talent became so, so, so apparent, you know, and so clear to anybody that cared to see him, whether that be somebody at the golf club. He had a coach from the age of four, you know, and straight away the coach said, I don't want pay because it's a pleasure to teach this kid. You know, I know what this kid is going to do is going to be great for my resumé at the end of the day, you know? And that happened with all Tiger’s coaches. Never, you know, not once did a dollar change hands between Tiger's parents and his coaches because he's that good. I think when he gets to high school and he's become a name, you know, he's known not just in California but beyond there, is like the best junior golfer in the country, it's then I think that you can see in Earl, there's like a shift in Earl's mindset where I'm thinking, right, okay, so my son's really good at golf, I know he's really good at golf. And they struggled financially, the Woods, taking Tiger around the country to all the tournament's coast to coast, flying here, there and everywhere. Earl didn’t make a lot of money, you know, he didn't have a great pension when he did retire. And so, I think the idea that Tiger could turn pro and make a significant amount of money suddenly became more of a driver in Earl's mindset, I think. As it, you know, inevitably would do I think, you know, and so from that stage on, Tiger's childhood really wasn't his own from sort of 10, 11 onwards, I don't think. His parents wouldn't let him play other sports, for instance, you know, not allowed, loved playing football, loved basketball, not allowed to do it just in case he might injure himself or jeopardize his golf career, you know? So, it's interesting how it changes, but also kind of understandable, you know, irrespective of what you think about the actual parenting style. I mean, you can see they're going to nurture and develop a talent, but, at what cost? That is the question.
GR: Yeah. Well, on that note, can you give me like, your single best example of Earl putting a lot of pressure on Tiger or being overbearing? Is there one, as you went through and researched this, is there like one greatest hit?
GN: One, there's several examples, I mean, especially when he was at college. There was a lot of trouble with the NCAA about Tiger's amateur status, you know, because Tiger was getting offers from left, right and center. And Earl was certainly getting offers as well, you know. I spoke to his, one of the assistant pros that used to be at Tiger's club when he's up to about 16, 17. And he said, that his dad that used to play there, he was a member, he used to turn up every single week with, like, hundreds of new golf balls in the trunk of his car, you know, and start handing them out. And you’re thinking, well, where did they come from? You know, and these are all people are going to Earl and saying, your son's really good, you know, maybe you want to come and chat with our guys, you know, and we can maybe sort of sort something out. And so, I think it's that point where you think, this has changed now, this has changed from being a kid who's good at golf to actually, you know, a meal ticket even, you know? So, I think it's an interesting but understandable way that Earl went, I think, given his financial issues as well, I think.
GR: Well, one of the reviews of your book called it a ‘searing indictment of Tiger Woods’ father’. Did you write that book with that approach? Is that how you went into it?
GN: No, not at all. No, I mean, I, like many people. I mean, there's been, you know, thousands of books on Tiger, right? It's not like, you know, you have to go far to find one. But most of them have a similar thing about Earl being the overbearing parent, you know, the, the guy that pushed Tiger and pushed Tiger and pushed Tiger, and he did. You know, let's not get that wrong in any way. But the more you read about it and the more you see the change in his mindset as Tiger gets older, and also how, I mean, a lot's not been said about his mother. You know, his mother's role in this as well was equally important, you know, because everybody thinks he was Earl driving Tiger forward, but his mother was just as disciplined and just as focused on making Tiger as good as he could possibly be, especially on the academic side, because he was a bright kid, right, so, he went to Stanford. So yeah, between the two of them, a formidable backroom team. But, in terms of developing and nurturing this rare talent, they found themselves in possession of, you know, but, in terms of parenting, again, another question.
GR: I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm speaking with Gavin Newsham. He's the author of a new book about Tiger Woods. It's titled, "Project Tiger: The Birth of Genius and the Price of Greatness." So, let's go into Tiger's adolescence. You mentioned that once he got to be about 10 or 11, and then after that. Give us an idea of just the degree to which he differed from other child prodigies. You know, there's a lot of child prodigies out there in different sports, but from your book you get the sense that, like, he's a whole other level of this. Can you give us an idea of just what the distance was?
GN: Yeah, I think it’s earlier than age of 10, you know, 9-10 it because even if you look at the kind of golf he was playing, I'm not sure how much you know about sort of standards in golf, Grant, but okay, you know, he was six years old when he shot 48 over nine holes. I mean, I don't shoot that now, you know? First hole in one at 6, broke 70 at 12, scratch by the time he was 13.
GR: And these are on real golf courses, not like little kiddie golf courses, right?
GN: No, not little pitch and putts, right? These are like, proper adult courses, you know. And so, you know, you've got this kid that is known throughout California and beyond from an early age. And he's winning trophy after trophy after trophy after trophy. Each week he's coming home with, you know, a clutch of trophies in the whole house that he lived at in Cyprus, it's just like a 1500 square foot trophy cabinet, right? It's nothing else in the house. So, that's, you know, his mom made him give all the trophies away, so out there there's loads of people that have got Tiger Woods’ trophies from when he was a kid, now probably don't even realize that they picked them up in a junk shop or something, you know, it's incredible that he was so successful. But again, I think a lot of people I spoke to that went to school with him and knew him as a youngster and also as a teenager, said on the golf course, really happy go lucky guy, loved nothing better than being out on the golf course when nobody can get to him, right? So, he's in complete control on the golf course, in control of his game, in control of what he says, what he does, you know, even his parents can't get to him at that point. Maybe afterwards they would if they weren't happy with something that he did or didn't do. But the fact that he spent so much time as a child playing golf was one of the reasons, I think, that he didn't really have a childhood in any normal sense of the word, because he didn't have that time to invest in other people, invest in kids in relationships and all that, and make all the mistakes that the kids make and learn from, you know? So, I think it had a massive impact on him I think going forward, especially in like, his dealings with the media, because he's always been so super guarded and even more so since all the scandals in 2009 and everything, you know. There's just been a big barrier there, constantly. That's ever since probably went to college, the way he started becoming even more guarded I think, because that's when his celebrity reached a new level, becoming the U.S. amateur champion, you know, and also becoming the best collegiate golfer of his generation too.
GR: So, there's an endless debate over whether great talent is born, whether it's innate or whether it is created, it's made. I imagine the reality may be a mix of both, but I was wondering whether your research on Tiger's early life gave you any insights on that big question?
GN: I think, yes, you need natural talent, but obviously it goes without saying that you need to be, have a flair for what you're good at. But I think that combination of having a Svengali like figure, like Earl Woods, who came from his military background, you know, he's so focused, driven, you know, prepared to do absolutely whatever it took to make Tiger as good as he could possibly be. I think he wanted to make him a, he said, a cold-blooded golf assassin was what his aim was to make his son. And sure enough, he did that. I mean, and then some right? I think that combination, that intersection of the two is when true greatness can be made, but it can also go the other way. Like you said, you've seen it so many times, you know, child stars, not just in sport, you know, but in entertainment, in acting, you know, in music, Michael Jackson, you know. It's just so many people fall by the wayside and it's, you know, it looks to be happening to Tiger as well, I think.
GR: You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with Gavin Newsham. The veteran golf writer has written a new book about the early years of Tiger Woods, it's titled, "Project Tiger: The Birth of Genius and the Price of Greatness" and we've been discussing his book. So, you may have kind of intimated this when you were talking about Tiger being so focused on golf that he didn't have a chance to develop like a lot, like other human beings do, at least if things are going well for them. Not all the other golfers liked the young Tiger Woods when he was a professional. I mean, I can remember, I think it was Phil Mickelson who used to sort of snark about him. What was it that these folks didn't like? Was it the arrogance, was it something else?
GN: I think there's, I think so, yeah. I mean, I think the last chapter of the book is all about when he turns pro in August ‘96 in Milwaukee. And it's really interesting, I maybe spoke to like 10 players that were there that week with him. And while everybody, without fail said, that guy's the future of golf, you know, we can't deny that. He's hitting the ball further than them, he’s fitter than them, you know, he's got more creativity, but also he's got that that mental aspect of his game, he's got it all up there, and he's 20 at the time, right? So, there's a lot of resentment on the tour. You know, this kid can turn up, turn pro and have $60 million in his bank from Nike and Titleist, four times what the world number one was getting at the time, Greg Norman. You know, and he's 20 just dropped out of college, you know, yes, there's going to be resentment, right, you know? But I think in time that changes because in time, Tiger becomes the biggest sport star in the world, and you know, in turn all the purses in pro golf go up, you know, all the prizes go up and everything and everybody’s ship rises right at the same time. So, everybody's earning more, everybody's doing better at the end. It's kind of the way, I think, why Tiger has been forgiven so many times, I think, for all his many indiscretions off the golf course. And it's nobody's really held any grudges in that respect, at least not in the game. And that’s likely because, A, they know that their livelihoods are down to Tiger Woods and what he did in terms of changing the face of professional golf. But B, there's probably a lot of other players that are at it as well, right? So, I think it's like a very close shot when it comes to, you know, what goes on on tour, stays on tour, right?
GR: Well, that's interesting, the idea that he was kind of the, you know, built the industry that way. Something that I think I remember and you would know this, is it seemed to me that you mentioned that he was fitter than everybody else. I seem to notice that after Tiger Woods, you start to see a lot of these golfers that are kind of ripped or cut. Whereas before, that was not the typical physique of a golfer. It wasn't like they were all out of shape, but all of a sudden they start looking like linebackers.
GN: Right, exactly that. I mean, it's, you know, even at Stanford, you know, Tiger would use the football team’s gym because he was friends with Bill Walsh, right, so he’d go in and use the gym with the football team. He wouldn't work out with the golf team because the golf team didn't do that, you know, it wasn't a thing. Why do they need to work out, right? But no, he'd be in the gym at 4 or 5:00 in the morning working out. So, by the time he turns pro and he's smashing the ball 50 yards further than everybody else, it's a wake up call to the rest of the golfers. It's saying step up or go away, you know, step up or step off because there's only one way this game's going now, and it's Tiger's way. And if you don't want to be part of that, then fine, you know, go and play on a lesser tour somewhere because, you know, you're going to have to get better. And sure enough, they did. I mean, everybody got longer off the tee. They even lengthened all the courses because of Tiger, because they were coming too short. And that's down to sheer power, you know, and that's what he had in abundance.
GR: Interesting. So, one of the things that you also document, of course, and this has been a topic of great discussion when it comes to Tiger Woods, the, just the vitriolic racism that was directed at him almost from the beginning. I mean, that would have had to put a zap on your mind of some sort. But can you give us an idea of just how nasty some of that stuff was that he was getting?
GN: Yeah. I mean, from an early age, you know, when he started playing at the Navy Club, which was Earl’s club, it's for ex-military. So, down near that house in Cypress. They didn't like Earl for a start, as a black man playing at their golf club, you know, still not really accepted. Tiger, they wouldn't let Tiger play until he was 10 at first, even though there were white kids playing that were like 6, 7, 8 years old, you know, they refused to let him play. And you know, this goes on through high school, where, you know, he routinely gets racially abused, when they're playing on the road, you know. And also at 16 when he played his first PGA tour at just 16 years old, and he played in the Nissan Open in LA at Riviera, he got his first death threat. A racist death threat that his father and the tournament organizers received that was on the answer machine in the tournament office for when Tiger got there the first day. They didn't tell Tiger about it, they told him after it, and yet he just shrugged it off and went, ah, here we go again, you know? But I think what Earl did, to his credit, was channel that kind of negative energy that seemed to follow Tiger around a lot, you know, in certain parts of the states especially, you know, but channel that into something that he could feed off and become even stronger, you know, and I don't think there's any doubt that he did that.
GR: Yeah, maybe, I see sort of reinforce that, as you said before, sort of golf assassin approach, you know? Okay, I'm gonna, yeah. In the course of your writing career, do you have a lot of interactions with Tiger Woods?
GN: At press conferences and things, yeah. I've never had a sit-down interview with him. But then I don't think many people have, only the chosen few get selected in that inner circle, I think. I recall a friend of mine I worked with on a golf magazine years ago, and he got the nod, he got summoned from the UK to fly over to California to interview Tiger. Obviously took him, you know, 10, 11 hours to fly there, another 3 or 4 hours to go and find Tiger in some golf club in the middle of nowhere and then had four minutes with him, not a second more.
GR: (laughter)
GN: And this has cropped up a few times. I mean, I interviewed Tiger's first agent, Hughes Norton. He's the guy who cut all the deals when he turned pro. So, the guy that made him a multi-millionaire overnight, you know, set him up for life, as well as setting up his parents as well, obviously, you know. And he said that Tiger didn't really care about the money. It was the time that he cared about, and he would never give anybody, be that the media, sponsors that were paying him 20, 30, $40 million, you know, endorsements, anything, not a second more than they absolutely had to give them, you know. And sure enough, every single person I've spoken to about that have reinforced that, that he's you know, I'll do the bare minimum, and then thanks for your time, I’m off.
GR: Interesting. If you've just joined us, you're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. And my guest is the golf writer Gavin Newsham. So, you mentioned some things about this in the book. Obviously, your book is focused on Tiger's early years and the end is when he turns pro, but Tiger has a son who plays golf, Charlie, he's pretty good. How has Tiger approached his own son's development as a golfer? He's not been another Earl, It doesn't seem like.
GN: No, I think of all the things that you can accuse Tiger of, you can't accuse him, well, at least now you can't, of being a bad dad, I don't think. Yes, obviously what went on in 2008, 2009, you know, signaled the end of his marriage, you know, and pretty much his career, to be honest. But the fact that he seems to have maintained a good relationship with his kids, you know, Sam, his daughter, as well, is really quite nice I think to see, because a lot of the time Tiger doesn’t ever look that happy, but, he looks happy when he's, like you say, when you see him on those rare occasions playing golf with Charlie, he looks like a different guy, and I think that's really nice. I think he's also learned not to shove Charlie front and center in front of the cameras, like his dad did with him all the time, you know, and make him the focal point of the story. You know, that's, I think, he's kept that very private. And that's very different to how Earl used to behave, I think.
GR: Well, obviously the thing that's hanging over this entire conversation is the fact that Tiger Woods has been in the news again lately, for his ongoing struggle with addiction to painkillers and for driving under the influence. Do you think that the early years give us some insight into that, or is this more about someone that just has a lot of back problems, which, you know, as I was reading in your book and elsewhere, the very nature of his swing sort of puts him in a position to develop those problems. Is it just a story like that, or is there something about his upbringing that that gives us some insight?
GN: I think there's something in his psyche that says that he can't give up, I think. You know, if somebody close to him would have taken him to one side, maybe after the car crash in 2021 when he nearly lost his leg, and said, that’s it Tiger, come on, you know, no more of this, you know, you've got a life to live, you know, you've achieved everything in the game of golf. Taken him to one side and just said, look, come on, just pack it in. Because, but he's not, I think there's something in his mindset that says, I can come back again, I've done it before, you know, I did it in 2019 at the Masters, you know, and it's, he can't let go, you know? And I think, you know, greatness, however you want to define it, it's not just about talent, it's not about focus and discipline, you know, it's about the it's about knowing when to quit sometimes as well, I think. And I still don't think that Tiger's got it in his mindset to do that. And I think he's got to, I really do think he's got to call it a day soon.
GR: And the connection to the addiction then, is he needs the painkillers in order to physically be able to swing the club, right?
GN: Yeah. I mean, even in the week before the car crash, I mean, he came back to playing golf again. He's got this indoor tournament TGL he plays in, you know. And you finally see him hitting a few golf balls and having a good time and you’re thinking, he looks okay, you know, maybe will play in the Masters in, you know, the week after. And then within three days he's rolled his car, you know, he's arrested again, he's charged again, and he's off to rehab in Zurich in Switzerland and it's this recurring theme. When I started writing this book in, or the first idea I had for it was in 2021 when I was writing a piece in the wake of his last, that really serious car crash. It was a kind of, ‘What Now for Tiger Woods?’ piece and just looking into his childhood. And sort of, this is where the book came from. And yeah, 5 years on, the book’s written and literally in the week of it coming out, he's done it again. And it's like, will this ever end? You know, the fact that he's still news shows you what an incredible golfer he was and the genuine star power he had, I think. The fact that he's still box office says a lot, I think. Maybe says a lot about the game of golf at the moment as well, that maybe there aren't enough Tiger Woods in the game, or enough people that can kind of bring a new narrative to the professional game.
GR: Right. Well, we've only got about a minute and a half left. I want to try to squeeze in a few more questions, and this will be kind of like our lightning round, because these are more kind of yes or no or name something here. So, we'll be a little quicker here. But I’m going to put you on the spot. Who's the greater golfer, greater golfer now, Tiger Woods or Jack Nicklaus?
GN: Tiger Woods. Do you want an explanation? I could justify it all day.
GR: Yeah, quick.
GN: Okay, 2000 – 2001, literally nobody has ever played golf like that, ever. Across the four Majors where he won the Tiger Slam, Pebble Beach being the greatest example. And nobody ever will again, I don't think. He's literally playing a different game to everybody else.
GR: I would assume you would also contend that Tiger Woods is the more important golfer between those two figures.
GN: Yeah, well, yes and no. In terms of what he could have, did he do enough for the game of golf that he maybe could have done? I don't know, but close call, close call.
GR: Okay. If we're going to have a Tiger Woods play or a Tiger Woods movie, what kind of play is this going to be? Is it going to be a tragedy, a triumph, a redemption? What's the one word to describe the theme?
GN: Well, if you ask me, redemption, I think. It would have been true before his car crash is a redemption story. It still can be, I think.
GR: Okay. And the last question, really quick, you've already kind of answered it, but do you think we'll ever see another golfer with the impact of Tiger Woods?
GN: No. No, not at all.
GR: Well, all the more reason to read your book then, we'll have to leave it there. That was Gavin Newsham. And again, his new book is titled, "Project Tiger: The Birth of Genius and the Price of Greatness". It's a fascinating read, even if you're not a golf fan. Mr. Newsham, Gavin, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me, it's really been fun.
GN: Thanks for having me, Grant.
GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.
