Program transcript:
Grant Reeher: Welcome to the Campbell Conversations, I'm Grant Reeher. Party primaries across the state of New York are Tuesday, June 23rd. And one of the races in this region that is garnering attention is the Democratic primary for the state's 129th Assembly district, the seat currently held by Assemblyman Bill Magnarelli, who chairs the Transportation Committee. He’s being challenged by Onondaga County Legislator Maurice, or Moe, Brown, who currently represents the 15th district in that chamber and he chairs that chamber's Ways and Means Committee. The two of them join me today on the program. The 129th Assembly District includes the North Side, West Side, Eastwood, Strathmore and Valley areas of the city of Syracuse, as well as the towns of Geddes and Van Buren. Assemblyman Magnarelli, Legislator Brown, welcome back to the program.
Bill Magnarelli: Nice to be here.
Maurice Brown: Thanks for having us, Grant, appreciate you.
GR: Well, I appreciate both of you making the time. So, Legislator Brown, as the challenger, I'll ask you this first question. Bill Magnarelli has been representing this district for, I believe, 27 years, and in his previous campaigns he's often pointed to the state money and state projects that he has secured for the district, due in large part to his seniority. So, I wanted to ask you briefly, I know you could speak for a long time on this, but briefly make the case that he should not have another two year term.
MB: Yes, sir. Thanks for having me, Grant. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention Outer Comstock and the university neighborhood also being in this district, they would beat me up. But fundamentally, I think that, you know, it's time for fresh voices. It's time for a fresh perspective. Insanity is doing the same thing the same times, expecting different results. And I feel like we've peaked, I feel like we can do better. I don't take anything away from my Assemblymembers’ experience, I think he's done a great job for central New York. I'm posing the question of, can we do better? I believe we can. We've seen a lot of movement around the state, around the country towards these bigger, more bolder ideas. And this is a time for a, you know, more bold elected official. And that's why I'm running, because I think central New York deserves that.
GR: Okay. And you mentioned bigger, bolder ideas and I know that you've had some endorsements that have been from I think, you know, what most people would agree would be more the left wing of the party. Is it fair to say that you are challenging Assemblyman Magnarelli from the left? Is that a fair statement?
MB: Yeah, I think from the left is fair, but what more I think resembles it is from the bottom. Just working people haven't felt, you know, acknowledged. The conversation, one of the big ideas that I want to bring is around housing. It's probably the area that Bill and I disagree the most, but I want to do, you know, big investments in housing and the state is the vehicle that's best to do that. I wanted to pursue it at the county level. The county doesn't really have the bankroll that the state have, and the federal government is too in flux. It goes back and forth every four years. So, I want to pursue really large-scale housing, affordable housing, and I think the state's the best vehicle to do it. And we need housing that's going to, you know, support senior housing, low-income housing, affordable housing. And that's why I'm running.
GR: Okay, all right, thank you. So, Assemblyman Magnarelli, I want to give you a chance to sort of make, you know, some opening remarks here in a similar vein. Could you just briefly make the case that you deserve another two years?
BM: I think my record shows that explicitly. What I've been doing for central New York is well known, and I think the things that my opponent talks about are just a lot of talking points with not a lot backing him up. When you asked, you know, are you running from the left of the party? He's not running from the left of the party, he's running from outside the party. He himself calls himself a democratic socialist. He's a Working Families Party activist. He is not what I call a Democrat, but he's looking for the Democratic Party's imprimatur, so to speak, and I think people hopefully will look through that. I think my record speaks for itself. What I've done for education, what I've done for health care, not just bringing money home for specific organizations, but across the board in our budgets, advocating for things in our budgets. My opponent talks about housing. There has been no bigger proponent of housing and good housing in central New York and in Syracuse. There has been no bigger proponent of taking care of tenants and their rights than Bill Magnarelli, and I have the record to show for it. I have the legislation that has been passed that does it, and I don't think my opponent can say the same thing.
GR: Okay. Let me ask you a couple follow ups too.
BM: Sure.
GR: How do you respond to the argument, and I think Legislator Brown was intimating at this, how do you respond to the argument that 27 years in office is a long time? I mean, it's longer than some of the voters that are going to be voting in this race have been alive.
MB: Longer than my campaign manager has been alive.
GR: (laughter)
BM: I don't want to ask my opponent how old he was when I got in.
MB: I won’t answer.
BM: We’re not going to go there, okay?
GR: We are not going to go into Ronald Reagan territory. But let me ask you this though, you know, how do you respond to the argument that, hey, that's a long time, it might be time to give somebody else a shot, you know?
BM: Well, look, it's not something that I haven't thought of, okay? But I do feel that I'm kind of at my prime, so to speak, and being able to get things done in Albany. I know the people there, not just my colleagues who I get along with very well on both sides of the aisle, I talk to everybody, but also the people in the governor's cabinet. I know the secretaries, I know the Division of Budget, these are people that worked in the Assembly. Blake Washington, for example, to use a name, head of the budget department, he was in the Assembly when I got in the Assembly, and he worked his way up through everything to be our finance person. And then he went over to the dark side, so to speak, the governor's side. These are people I know that when I pick up the phone, they don't say Assemblyman, they go, Bill, what can we do for you? That type of thing. If I want to go into their office, I knock on the door and the secretaries know what I'm going to go, and I don't take up a lot of their time. I know how to get things done, how to pose the questions, how to get it done.
GR: I want to come back to Legislator Brown in just a second, but I have another follow up question for you. You said that Legislator Brown was outside the Democratic Party, and I wanted to get a clear sense what you mean by that. Where is the line for you in terms of policy or particular proposals that separates, say, a progressive Democrat from somebody outside the party? I'm trying to figure out what Legislator Brown is on the other side of that makes you say he's not a Democrat.
BM: Well, first of all, I want to make something very clear. I've always been a progressive, and I'm not going to let this opponent or any other opponent tell me that I'm not progressive. When you look at women's rights, when you look at LGBTQ rights, when you look at what I've done for education and health care, I'm a progressive. Always was, always will be. My opponent calls himself a democratic socialist. A socialist is something different. That is not a Democrat, that's a socialist. That means someone who is looking for government to take over parts of the infrastructure of our state.
GR: So, let me interject something here, if I can.
BM: Sure, go right ahead.
GR: Okay, so that's what he calls himself, but is there a policy that he is calling for at the state level that you say, that's too far, that is no longer in the Democratic Party, that is something else. I'm trying to get a sense other than what he calls himself, what the boundary is.
BM: No, I think it's everything that he talks about and the way he talks about it and how he wants to implement it is not within the Democratic Party as I know it. Now, there’s a difference of opinion, okay, he is what he is and believes what he believes, and I believe something different. I'm a Democrat, somebody might say an old school Democrat, but don't call me non-progressive. I'm a progressive Democrat, always have been.
GR: Okay, Legislator Brown, I wanted to give you a chance to get in on this.
MB: Thank you.
GR: So tell us why you are a Democrat that Democrats voting in the primary should not feel uncomfortable with? I guess from an ideological standpoint, I think that's what the assemblyman is intimating here.
MB: Yes, sir, thank you. So, I'm of the belief that the Democratic Party is a big tent party. I don't believe that, you know, this subjugation, this division that my opponent is spewing that we're seeing in politics, that you're in this box, I can't support you or you're in that box. I support my assemblyman, I support Democrats. Yes, I am a Democratic socialist. I believe the bill my Assemblymember is probably referring to is the New York Health Act, which he supports, but that is the government taking over, not taking over, but the government inserting itself in the health care conversation. I want the government to do that in the health care conversation, but as well as the education conversation and the housing conversation. I think that if you want to sell insulin, if you want to sell, you know, tickets to the Knicks game, if you want to sell cars, you can let the market decide to profit. But if you want to sell insulin, if you want to sell housing, if you want to sell these things that people need to live, I think the government has a right to step in. And in fact, I think the government has a duty. And to me, that's where my democratic socialism steps in, where, you know, you can't just let the market drive the price of insulin because we need it to live.
BM: And we don’t.
GR: So you mentioned housing before…
MB: We do need insulin.
BM: I mean, that’s the thing, we don’t, we do come in, we do step in. We do all the things that he's saying, he's not saying anything new, okay?
MB: Then where am I on the line?
BM: Because I think you go farther than that.
GR: Let me ask Legislator Brown. So on the housing, what are the things that you want the state to do in housing that are different from what the kinds of things that the Assemblyman has been working on, as he said he's been working on, to advance the cause of affordable housing? What's different?
MB: So, I'm in favor of Assemblymember Gallagher's social housing plan. Pretty much it allows, it puts a big amount of money, and the government, the state in this entity, I've tried to do it at the county as well and we're moving forward with Invest Syracuse. But pretty much when you're trying to build housing, if you're a developer, you have a profit incentive. When the public becomes the developer, the model is called public developer, it removes that profit incentive. We're not trying to make profit as the State of New York, we're trying to build and develop affordable housing. So, I'm in favor of her bill, I believe, you know, Mr. Magnarelli, my opponent would call that outside of the party socialism, but Assemblymember Gallagher is a Democrat. There are several Democratic sponsors, and I'm looking forward to working with them. But these are things we can do, we just need the political will to push for them.
GR: On that particular issue, and then Assemblyman I'll get you back in on this one, on that particular issue, just so that we all understand it, this proposal, is this going to be across the board in the state of New York? Are they going to target certain areas and certain cities for this public development effort?
MB: So, right now it's in discussion. So, the upstate cities was a delineation, and we actually did receive $10 million from the state. And that's going to go towards Invest Syracuse. I would like to see it statewide, but I'm happy that the city of Syracuse is prioritized. If you look in our inner cities, especially upstate, a lot of people who look like me struggle with housing, and that's why I'm fighting so much for it, so heavily.
GR: Okay. Assemblyman Magnarelli, this housing proposal by Gallagher, is that something you're in favor of or not?
BM: Well, I'm in favor of anything that puts more investment into our housing. At this point in time, we need housing, we need to build out every unit we can possibly do. And that would be, especially here in Syracuse because of Micron and what's coming in north of Syracuse. One thing I want to correct a little bit here, is Assemblymember Gallagher is a democratic socialist. So, when he says he's with Democrats, he's going to be voting with democratic socialists. And I want to make sure that everybody understands that.
MB: She's a Democrat, though, right? She's registered as a Democrat, just like me.
BM: You’re a registered Democrat too but you call yourself a democratic socialist.
BM: You call yourself a progressive. Like, those labels.
MB: Okay, well, okay, fine.
GR: All right, so we’ve got it, self-identified progressive.
MB: We're all Democrats.
GR: Self-Identified.
MB: This notion that (unintelligible) is more Democrat…we’re all Democrats.
BM: No.
MB: No? All right.
BM: I disagree with you on that. The bottom line here on housing, though. Let's get back to housing.
MB: Yes, sir.
BM: Okay. Housing is something that we have to invest in. There's numbers of different ways to do it, I'm for all of those ways, anything that gets housing built. Because the answer to our problems, answers to our tenant problems has always been more units. The more units we build, the more we get to the point where we have enough, then we won't have some of the problems that we have on the tenant side.
GR: All right, and before we take our break,
MB: Can I interject, though?
GR: Let me ask the Assemblyman this question, then Legislator Brown, I'll get you on the back end.
MB: Thank you.
GR: Do you have a concern though, Assemblyman, that this proposal that Legislator Brown is talking about is going to make fewer units of housing available? Is that what you're suggesting, that somehow it would make…
BM: No, not at all. I’m not saying that it’s going to make fewer, I’m just not, I'm not sure that that proposal is going to be the most economic one. In terms of building housing through the state is usually more expensive than allowing private developers to develop, maybe with some incentives from the state, which we've done all along, okay? And I think it's going to be absolutely necessary in our neck of the woods in the coming years. But I think that doing public housing, doing state run housing, I don't know anybody who likes living in that. So, you know, the bottom line is, where are we going to get good housing for the tenants to live in? And that's what I've always been for.
MB: Can I interject, Grant, or the time? No?
GR: I'll get you on the backside. You're listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media. I'm Grant Reeher, and I'm talking with the two candidates in the Democratic primary for New York State's 129th Assembly District. It's the incumbent Bill Magnarelli and the challenger and county legislator, Maurice Brown. Legislator Brown, you wanted to jump in there right before we took our break on this housing issue, go ahead and put your thought out there.
MB: So, the way public developer works, or at least the way we plan on doing it with Invest Syracuse, is we make the money available for developers. So, we tell the developer, as long as you agree to build affordable housing, as long as you agree to build X kind of housing, you can get this money for low or even no interest in some situations. So, it's not the government doing it, we're going to let the experts do the housing, but we have access to capital through taxation that they just don't. If we're able to tax the rich, if we're able to put that money in a pot, we can make it available to them as long as they meet our stipulations. So, it's not government-run housing how you've seen, you know, public housing in the past, but it is government funded.
GR: Well, let me follow up on that and ask you to address the Assemblyman’s concern head on. So, he did bring up the concern about quality, and if I heard him correctly, the idea that, you know, when government just comes in and builds these things and runs these things, the quality is not what you would see from the private sector. So how are, is that a concern of yours, and how would you guarantee that that would not become a problem?
MB: So, it's actually the reason I'm running for state legislature in specific. So, if you look at the federal level, you'll have Democrat Obama, you'll have Republican Trump, you'll have Biden Democrat, and each time you'll have a different HUD Department, and the housing policy changes drastically. At the state level, you don't really see that as much. You know, you'll have different levels of Democrats, I know my opponent doesn't think everyone's a Democrat, but I think you'll have different levels of Democrats who all support housing. But you have a level of stability that you won't even have, even with county government that we're seeing right now with divided government. So, I think the State of New York is the best vehicle to build housing in mass.
GR: Okay, all right. So, Assemblymember Magnarelli, we've already been talking about this in different ways, but I wanted to ask you this question specifically. Your party, from Mayor Mamdani to Governor Hochul has emphasized something that it's calling affordability in its messaging. This is, the Democrats are always talking about affordability in the last year or so. What does affordability mean to you in the context of your district, the 129th?
BM: What it means to me is a, you know, a family that is trying to, that is making relatively good money, as you're talking about here in Syracuse in Onondaga Count. You're talking about people who are making, both parents, for example, I'm talking about a family, okay, say a family of four. Both parents are working, both parents are making, have good salaries, but they're concerned about their mortgage. They're concerned about their utility bills, they're concerned about their car payments and God knows how they're going to put their kids through school. And that's what I call affordability. That is the thing that most people are concerned about. How do I get by from paycheck to paycheck? How do I put a little bit away for my kids? How do I put a little bit away for my retirement? Those are things that are becoming unaffordable, unaffordable to common folk. And those are the people that I represent. Well, I represent everybody, but I want to take care of the people that are poor and disadvantaged, and we have programs to do that. And I've always been out in front on all of those. But we can't leave the middle class, working class people behind. And that's what I think affordability is.
GR: And so, Legislator Brown, anything that you'd want to disagree with, how would you respond to that definition?
MB: No, I think he's spot on. I think where we disagree is where we go from here. Like how do we address this affordability crisis. But he is correct, working families, single families, single mothers, single fathers, families across central New York, honestly, across New York State are struggling right now and I think the government needs to help.
GR: Okay. And then let me stick with you and ask you this. You spoke at the outset about the kind of change you are hoping to make, but let's be specific. What's the most important vote that Assemblyman Magnarelli took in the last two years where you would have voted differently from him on? Where are your specific disagreements here?
MB: So, this has come up a bunch in the campaign and we don't disagree with ideology, we disagree with leadership, with urgency. I think that he needs to be a leader. I do think we disagree on Assemblymember Meeks’ taxation, we want to raise, we pretty much want to change the tax bracket about $500,000 annually. If you make over $500,000 in a year, we want to tax you more, let's be clear. If you're making over $500,000, I think you can afford to give a little more right now. But we can use that to pay for childcare. Like, I'm working with ON-RAMP, and one of the biggest issues that has come up is people want to finish the program, but they can't get childcare. I think the state is able to raise the revenue to pay for childcare. That's something we can do right away that would help with that affordability crisis. We're seeing it in the Catskills, we're seeing, you know, they're doing it in New York City very noticeably, because of the Social Democrat they elected as mayor. But we can do these things, like, it is possible for the government to step in. I think he would agree with something like that. He's just, or at least in my experience, he hasn't been the one to be the leader for it. He kind of waits and, you know, sees where the wind is blowing and gets behind it. But we need to lead on those things.
GR: Okay, so Assemblymember Magnarelli…
BM: So yeah, go ahead, but I’ve got to say something.
MB: You can talk.
BM: You were okay all the way up until you said, I see where the wind is blowing. That has never been the way I do anything.
MB: Yes sir.
BM: And the bottom line is, we have passed increases in income tax over the last 5 or 6 years. We've increased taxes on the rich, and we'll do it again, I know we will. The question is, what is rich and how much are you going to tax at what levels? If you're talking about millionaires, even $500,000 a year in income in Syracuse, I can see that, that's not a problem. But on the other hand, if you're starting to talk about taxing people at $100,000 or $200,000 or $300,000 and you're talking about it statewide, that's problematic and it goes to the affordability question, it goes to the affordability question.
MB: Can I counter?
GR: Go ahead, yes, Legislator Brown.
MB: I just will counter to say this is where I want you to lead. You are the Assemblyman, you can draft the legislation that says we don't want to tax $300,000, we don't want to tax $400,000, but I haven't seen this legislation sponsored by Magnarelli. And instead of, you know, waiting to see, oh, what will the bill look like, I will be an Assemblymember that will craft the bill so we won't have to wonder.
BM: Yeah, I craft bills that pass.
MB: These will pass.
GR: Okay, so let me come back here because we've only got about three and a half minutes left, believe it or not, it goes fast. And I want to ask a question that is directed to this conversation that comes from maybe, perhaps the middle of the road voter in this district. So, I'm maybe jumping ahead to the general election with this type of question, and not the Democratic primary, but, and I'll throw it out to either of you. Are either, I'm hearing from the progressive, I'm hearing from the Democratic Socialists about taxing more and spending more. Are either of you serious about trying to rein in New York's overall state spending? I mean, it comes in at number one or number two in any of these rankings that are done on tax burden and spending per capita. A lot of people think that New York spends too much. So, is there, Legislator Brown, I’ll start with you.
MB: Yeah, I’ll go, yeah, I can speak.
GR: Is there any place where you can save some money here?
MB: So, in my experience with government, people aren't as upset with us spending in general, but what we spend it on. So, in the county legislature, people are really upset. We used our tax dollars to build an aquarium. I have aggressively opposed that. But at the state level, you know, we've made investments as well. I think if we use state money and invest in things like childcare, invest in housing, invest in people, and not just handouts for corporations, I haven't seen these complaints, even from far right people. It's what you're spending it on that's more problematic than the spending number.
GR: Okay, I got to jump in on that because you mentioned, I'll get you Assemblyman in just a minute, but I’ve got to jump in on that. Do you think that the state of New York gave too much money to Micron in terms of tax incentives to get them here?
MB: No. Short answer, no.
GR: Okay. I just want to make sure because it sounds like that's where you were headed with that kind of response. Assemblyman Magnarelli, go ahead, you wanted to jump in.
BM: I kind of lost it now, you took my thought away from me.
GR: Sorry.
BM: But the bottom line here is, yes, I'm always concerned about spending too much or it not being spent properly, or there being fraud in different programs that needs to be taken care of. Those are always things that we look at, and it does affect affordability. And those are, I've sat on commissions for various governors looking for regulations that could be taken away and making small businesses easier to run. Those are types of things that would make New Yorkers better off, more affordable, more affordability to live. Those are the types of things we should be looking at, as well as, yes, taxing the very, very rich to take care of some of the problems that we have, absolutely.
GR: Okay. And Legislator Brown, we're just a couple seconds out. But do you have any final thoughts here? I'll give the last word to you, just a couple quick thoughts.
MB: Yeah. I think that when we are, you know, building out these state programs, when we’re, I'll use Micron as an example. You know, that money is going to go towards creating jobs for our young people that we've never been able to do. We still have to hold them accountable, honestly, that waste you brought up. But this is one of the ways we do it with environmental review, etc..
GR: Okay, we'll have to leave it there. And as always, I wish we had more time for this stuff. It feels like we were just getting into it, but that was New York State Assemblyman Bill Magnarelli and Onondaga County Legislator Maurice Brown. They are the two candidates in the Democratic primary for the 129th district in the New York State Assembly, and the actual day of the primary is Tuesday, June 23rd. Legislator Brown, Assemblyman Magnarelli, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, really appreciate it.
BM: You're welcome, thank you.
MB: Thanks, Grant.
GR: You've been listening to the Campbell Conversations on WRVO Public Media, conversations in the public interest.
